Air to water heat source system

conger

I got a quote in today for a 8 Kw air to water heat source system. The figures worked out that the energy useage would be about £300 per year less and in addition I should recieve back IHP payments of about £1000 per year. Pay back for the system will be less than 5 years. Sounds like a no brainer.

I am located in the Southeast with 1970 terrace and am considering changing from an past its best floor standing gas system.

Are these systems really this cheap to run and has anyone got any experience of these systems.
I wonder if the calculations do not factor any supplementry immersion input cost required in low temperatures.

I am also getting quotes for a replacement gas boiler as a comparison.

any advice on these systems would be welcomed.

Thanks

muckybutt

Unless your home is ultra well insulated then don't touch em with a barge pole.

We were suckered into getting one in 4 years ago.....worst thing we've ever done ! 70 days use + £800. Best thing we did ? rip it out and bought a multi fuel stove with the cash we got cost to run ch from it £60 a month.

matelodave

If your home is really well insulated or you are using LPG or Oil then they can be cost effective in the long term. If you are on mains gas, then its a no brainer - stay with gas and get a decent condensing combi installed.

You wont save money against mains gas unless you spend loads of money on insulationn and get the whole heating system upgraded with oversized radiators.

I put a full system in during 2010 but I'm not on mains gas so I'd have to use LPG or Oil, so for me it does work out. But, so far I've been waiting for the RHI to come into effect and all thats happened is that it's been deferred from spring 2011, spring 2012, then possibly Autumn 2012, then spring 2013 and has been put off again untill spring 2014 (so that will be over years that it's been deferred) and the payments have been continually reduced until it's not going to be worth having.

So if you've got mains gas then stay with it

Silent_Dancer

If you're on mains gas then avoid, it will not be cheaper to run. If you are on LPG it may be cheaper to run provided it installed correctly. However, an oil boiler is likely to be cheaper to install and run.

[Deleted User]

Yes if on mains gas avoid. Running costs may be similar but install costs are not.

If on LPG then a heat pump is a no brainer if your house is suitable. In saying that our EPC was G the worst you can get... Make of that what you will...

Switching from LPG to an EcoDan ASHP saved us £1764 a year in heating/water. But that is not the whole story. LPG was the bare minimum of use where as the EcoDan is never off [when we are in the house]

Since install that is savings on heating of around £3k... Nuts eh!

PS Oil - liquid gold and costs as much. I know people in dispair over oil consumption/cost due to the longer than expected winter and are desperate to rip it out...

Cardew

jeepjunkie wrote: »

Switching from LPG to an EcoDan ASHP saved us £1764 a year in heating/water. But that is not the whole story. LPG was the bare minimum of use where as the EcoDan is never off [when we are in the house]

The average consumption of gas for heating/water in UK is 16,500kWh. That allows for the efficiency of the boiler

So with oil CH, assuming the same boiler efficiency, that will be 1,617 litres. Taking the highest price of oil over the last 6 months(65p/ltr) that will cost £1,050.

LPG should be similar costs.

WHICH in a comparison last year gave average costs of £1,355 for oil and more than £1,300 for LPG

These annual costs are estimated costs based on heating and hot water demands of a three-bedroomed, semi-detached, well-insulated house (insulated cavity walls,
270mm loft insulation, thermostatic radiator valves and insulated primary pipe work), the efficiencies of typical heating systems and the current average price of LPG per litre (as of July 2012). They are not derived from actual fuel bills.

On Air Source heat pumps they stated:

The EST says that a 'typical' air source heat pump could save you up to £380 (replacing electric heating) a year. But be aware that only some of the heat pumps the EST monitored in recent trials achieved reductions in heating bills. It found wide-ranging variations in performance, with the biggest heating bill reductions for households off the gas grid. However, the trials
found that, without the RHI, an ASHP could actually cost you more if you are currently using gas or heating oil to heat your home.

Which? thinks more evidence is needed to better understand the cost savings possible per household. The EST has also highlighted the need for further study of heat pumps on an installation-by-installation basis.

So to quote 'savings' of £1,764 a year with a heat pump over LPG is simply meaningless(and misleading) for most people.

Even with an excellent ASHP installation achieving a COP of 3.0(way, way above the average achieved in the EST trial) the savings over oil/lpg will be a couple of hundred pounds a year for the average house.

The cost of an ASHP system can be well over £10,000 so how long to payback the extra capital? especially if you take into account the lost interest on that capital, or cost of borrowing.

[Deleted User]

Cardew wrote: »

The average consumption of gas for heating/water in UK is 16,500kWh. That allows for the efficiency of the boiler

So with oil CH, assuming the same boiler efficiency, that will be 1,617 litres. Taking the highest price of oil over the last 6 months(65p/ltr) that will cost £1,050.

LPG should be similar costs.

WHICH in a comparison last year gave average costs of £1,355 for oil and more than £1,300 for LPG



On Air Source heat pumps they stated:




So to quote 'savings' of £1,764 a year with a heat pump over LPG is simply meaningless(and misleading) for most people.

Even with an excellent ASHP installation achieving a COP of 3.0(way, way above the average achieved in the EST trial) the savings over oil/lpg will be a couple of hundred pounds a year for the average house.

The cost of an ASHP system can be well over £10,000 so how long to payback the extra capital? especially if you take into account the lost interest on that capital, or cost of borrowing.

Silly me for posting such nonsense...

albyota

Tut, tut, tut, silly boy JJ.....;)

Cardew....From another thread........:D

creditcarddebt wrote: »

Hi

We moved into a village with no gas supply back in August last year, and since then we have bought 2300 litres of oil! Its horrendous, and makes me really want to move back to somewhere with mains gas. Back in my old house with gas central heating we could have the whole house nice and toasty and the cost was ok. Now admittedly we do have a bigger house, well bungalow now, but its not huge! We are in a 3 bed detached bungalow, we had cavity wall insulation put in last November for free through British Gas, we have plenty of loft insulation as my husband did that not long after we moved in. We also have a wood burner in the front room, but this only heats that room. Luckily my husband is a builder and is always coming across free wood!

We have underfloor heating in the new part of the bungalow, I have the temperature set at 18 in two zones, and at 20 in my baby's room. The rest of the bungalow is on radiators. The heating comes on for 2-3 hours in the morning, and another 3 - 4 hours in the evening, obviously only if the thermostat says its cold enough to come on. In all honesty I have never been so cold as I am in this property. We did wonder if someone was taking our oil so we have now got a watchman thing fitted. The boiler heats the water too, we do not have an emmersion heater. Am beginning to think I would be better off putting some oil filled radiators in some rooms!

Any ideas on where we could save on our oil comsumption!!

Cardew

albyota wrote: »

Cardew....From another thread........:D

Not sure of the relevance of your quoted post.

It is simply saying someone is in a property that uses masses of oil and also has a wood burner.

Assuming the oil is not being stolen, the boiler has used nearly 24,000kWh since August to whatever date that was posted.

If they had gas they would have still used the same amount of energy if the boiler had the same efficiency.

albyota

It's a 3 bed bungalow......is that not an average size house?
You state that the average consumption in the UK is 16,500 kWh/yr.
This person has used 3,200 litres of oil in 7 months, (granted, mostly the colder months) and they say the house is now well insulated.
Then you indicate that jeepjunkie cannot be telling the truth by saying he has saved over £1700 in a year changing from LPG to an ASHP, I'm sure there will be other factors in those savings like better controls etc.

Cardew

albyota wrote: »

It's a 3 bed bungalow......is that not an average size house?
You state that the average consumption in the UK is 16,500 kWh/yr.
This person has used 3,200 litres of oil in 7 months, (granted, mostly the colder months) and they say the house is now well insulated.
Then you indicate that jeepjunkie cannot be telling the truth by saying he has saved over £1700 in a year changing from LPG to an ASHP, I'm sure there will be other factors in those savings like better controls etc.

I am saying that Jeepjunkie quoting savings of £1,734 per year is meaningless unless we have some figures.

What was he spending on LPG to save such a sum - £10,000 pa?

What consumption is for the heat pump?

Jeepjunkie was complaining he couldn't calculate his COP because Mitsubishi wouldn't play ball.

WHICH give some average costs for LPG and Oil with the parameters spelt out. Ofgem give average gas consumption of 16,500kWh gas and 3,300kWh electricity.

They also give a view on the results of the EST trial.

The report makes interesting reading:

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=35145...CED12884A5!173

It is a report commissioned by some major heat pump manufacturers(Mitsubishi, Daiken etc) and Utility companies.

Essentially it is a plea(pressure group) to enable bigger subsidies to users to make heat pumps financially viable
- without those subsidies they won't compete.

It also acknowledges there are a lot of improvements required - both in performance and noise reduction.

Anyway to your specific question it gives the costs, 'based
on surveyed industry average(includes installation costs)' as £9,500 for an ASHP and £17,500 for a GSHP for a 3 bed semi. - see page 25 and 26 of report.