Unhappy Car Sale - Interesting Update

NeverEnough

Surely its not your fault if you sell a vehicle as spares or repairs, strongly advise that it be trailered away and not driven, and the buyer then ignores the advice and drives it away anyway? How is that your fault? Especially if you even endorse the receipt sold for spares/repairs, no MOT and buyer signs receipt?

What any supposedly capacitious adult does once they buy an item like a car, knowing it is not meant to be on the road, is surely not anyones fault but their own? This nanny state is crazy sometimes, how can you control the actions of others even if you give advice - they can choose to ignore it?

JQ.

Use this :

http://www.whatcar.com/images/subscription/usedcarreceipt.pdf

and as stated above make sure you note the time and make sure there are 2 signed copies, one for you and one him.

Once he's paid and you've signed over the V5 the car belongs to him and if he get's caught it is totally his responsibilty.

tesuhoha

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Be careful with this one.

I have no idea whether or not the police would be likely to take ation but, if you go through with the sale of an unroadworthy car knowing that he's intending to drive it away then YOU are commiting an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1988 S.75(1) by selling or supplying a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition.

The way the Act's been constructed that is an offence, with a statutory defence in S.75(6)(b) where the seller "had reasonable cause to believe that the vehicle or trailer would not be used on a road in Great Britain, or would not be so used until it had been put into a condition in which it might lawfully be so used".

The sale of the car occurs at the point you take money and hand everything over, not at the time the EBay acution ends, so if he turns up planning to drive it and you carry the sale through, you could be charged under the above and, if you were, you would be convicted.

As I say, I have no idea how likely the Police are to do so (assuming he gets spotted) but you should be aware of the possibility.

Thank you. In view of the fact that my husband will lose his job if he gets a criminal conviction (he has that kind of job), its just not worth taking a chance on this. I have looked up the Road Traffic Act Section 75. Therefore, we have just texted him (too late to phone) to say that we cannot sell him the car because it is a criminal offence to knowingly let him drive away with it. I am hoping it will go to a second chance offer.

Joe_Horner

NeverEnough wrote: »

Surely its not your fault if you sell a vehicle as spares or repairs, strongly advise that it be trailered away and not driven, and the buyer then ignores the advice and drives it away anyway? How is that your fault? Especially if you even endorse the receipt sold for spares/repairs, no MOT and buyer signs receipt?

What any supposedly capacitious adult does once they buy an item like a car, knowing it is not meant to be on the road, is surely not anyones fault but their own? This nanny state is crazy sometimes, how can you control the actions of others even if you give advice - they can choose to ignore it?

It doesn't matter.

The way the law is worded it's an offence to sell an unroadworthy car (as a private or trade sale) unless you have good reason to believe they won't drive it

The offence is committed at the time you sell it, not when they drive away. In fact, you technically commit the offence even if they don't drive it if you think they might.

In this case the OP has good reason to believe the buyer intends to drive it, so he would be committing an offence if he sells it. Whether or not the police would care is a different matter which I honestly don't know the answer to.

Note that "unroadworthy" as far as the Act is concerned doesn't necessarily mean "without an MOT" because a car without an MOT can still be roadworthy.

But if there are defects - especially with brakes, tyres and steering - that would prevent it passing an MOT then the Op should be aware of the (possibly slight) risk.

If nothing else, it gives him a reason that EBay can't fault* to refuse the sale if he had other close bidders and doesn't want to be messed around by this guy.


* they can't insist that he honours a sale if doing so would require him to break the law because of the buyer's actions!




eta: just seen the OP's reply. Message EBay to let them know the situation. If he insists that you go ahead and turns up with a trailer then you'll still be bound by the auction but, if he doesn't come prepared to tow it, then you shouldn't get any comeback from EBay for it.

spacey2012

The missed Legal term is "Knowingly" which in Legal Clark terms is is "to act in assistance of creating criminal offence and or assisting or coercing that person to commit such offence either by deception or coercion "
Broken down " telling them they will be fine to drive it".

tesuhoha

To be honest as far as I am aware there is not much wrong with the car and it could very well be roadworthy. There is plenty of tread on the tyres but we do not know for sure that it would pass the MOT. One of the headlights is damaged. It just makes me nervous and I would rather someone paid £10 less and took it away on a truck.

tesuhoha

I also think the likelihood of him being stopped is very high.

in_the_Cotswolds

Did you put in the ad "to be towed or trailered away"?

Joe_Horner

spacey2012 wrote: »

The missed Legal term is "Knowingly" which in Legal Clark terms is is "to act in assistance of creating criminal offence and or assisting or coercing that person to commit such offence either by deception or coercion "
Broken down " telling them they will be fine to drive it".

Nope, knowingly doesn't come into this one.

The offence is to sell or supply a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/75

It's a strict liability offence to sell any unroadworthy car (as defined within the section) whether or not you know it's unroadworthy but there's a statutory defence if you had genuine reason to believe it wouldn't be driven until repaired.

The defence requires more than "not knowing if he'll drive it" or "not having reason to think he will drive it" - it requires positive reasons to believe that he won't drive it (such as he arrives with a tow car and trailer). So you couldn't put up a reasonable defence if the buyer turns up on a train and asks for a lift from the station!

There is also no defence at all for "I didn't know it was unroadworthy" or even "I genuinely thought it was roadworthy".

Joe_Horner

tesuhoha wrote: »

To be honest as far as I am aware there is not much wrong with the car and it could very well be roadworthy. There is plenty of tread on the tyres but we do not know for sure that it would pass the MOT. One of the headlights is damaged. It just makes me nervous and I would rather someone paid £10 less and took it away on a truck.

That's a sensible attitude for your own protection (even if it's "unlikely" that a prosecution would happen) but also for the people who might suffer when he carries on driving it without MOT.

Funny how many people are ready to jump up and down in outrage at people doing that, but are quite happy to advise letting them get on with it as long as you get your money :rotfl: