You can cancel your Orange contract!

DamePeggy

That all looks pretty persuasive to me RC, there's only a very tortuous path from the wording of the clause to EE's position - with each step requiring an interpretation on behalf of EE. I'm just worried that the CISAS bods will do their utmost to find a way to follow it though. .

Were you tempted to get the decision on your case before submitting your son's? I'm certainly interested to see how the adjudicator will counter your evidence regarding OFT guidelines on price increase clauses. My guess is that he'll just ignore it, but I hope I'm proved wrong. Please post it when you get it.

I'm still fuming about my CISAS decision having had another look at it last night. The adjudicator rejected my claim solely on the basis of two concepts - 'the intention of the parties' and the 'meaning of the clause'. The text that was missing in the defence that I received (which was absolutely identical to the one you got up to the point where it was chopped off) contained the ONLY place where these concepts were mentioned by EE.

The 'intention of the parties' was not mentioned anywhere else at all, and the 'meaning of the clause' was only really introduced earlier in the chopped paragraph itself, which in turn didn't make much sence as the final sentences were missing.

Good luck!

RandomCurve

DamePeggy wrote: »

Were you tempted to get the decision on your case before submitting your son's? I'm certainly interested to see how the adjudicator will counter your evidence regarding OFT guidelines on price increase clauses. My guess is that he'll just ignore it, but I hope I'm proved wrong. Please post it when you get it.

I was tempted, but once I saw your result I thought that if mine does not win it would be for the same reasoning as yours.

I'll post the result as soon as I get it - not expected until 22nd August.

RandomCurve

As many of you will know I also have a T-Mobile contract and I have won my CISAS case against them.

I have been trying to get Ofcom to take some action on the T-Mobile price rise, and after initially refusing to get involved they now say that they are "considering" taking action. In an effort to gee them along a bit I have incorporated Oranges behaviour in quoting the wrong T&Cs to demonstrate a pattern in EEs policy on trying to confuse customers from cancelling contracts - the relevant extract is as follows:



3.Further Evidence.



I said I would keep you up to date with any new evidence I have of T-Mobiles (EE) behaviour in misleading Ofcom and the consumer, and I now have further evidence.



In addition to having a T-Mobile phone contract, I am unfortunate enough to also have an Orange mobile phone contract. Orange announced a price rise in the press at the same time as T-Mobile (both being trading names of EE as you will be aware). I am on an older version of the contract –Pre November 2012 - which means approximately 83% of Orange (EE) 24 month contract holders are also on this contract (which in my opinion does not allow for a price rise, but that is irrelevant and my claim is going through CISAS at present), however the point is that in ALL my correspondence with Orange (EE) prior to receiving their defence from CISAS EE only ever referred to either the clauses of the newer contract (and not my contract) or quoted newer Orange terminology. My son also has an Orange EE contract, has also queried the price rise, and has also had only the newer T&Cs quoted to him! I wager that when he submits a CISAS case Orange (EE) will quote the correct T&Cs in their defence.



Now I know your first instinct is to dismiss this as an “individual case” (which is difficult as there are two if us) and tell me that you cannot get involved, but I think we have both seen enough evidence to begin to see a pattern of behaviour that demonstrates a systematic approach by EE to deliberately confuse its customers to prevent them bringing action, by giving responses that relate to the wrong version of the contract. As a regulator that employees intelligent people you can’t really believe that EE inadvertently have mis quoted the contract terms on both my T-Mobile and Orange contracts, and have also inadvertently quoted the wrong T&Cs to both me and my son on our Orange contracts? What are the odds that of that happening as you [Ofcom] have accepted T-Mobiles statement that this only happens in a “small number of cases”? I have also copied in some quotes from other Orange customers confused by Orange in regards to T&Cs at the end of this email. I have also copied in my T&Cs (relevant parts highlighted RED)and Orange responses with the current T&Cs and terminology (Highlighted Blue). I really don’t know what further evidence you would need to take action!





Quotes fromother Customers being confused by Orange as to which T&Cs they are on:



“I still don't understand. Have they [Orange] actually changed their T&C's though?”



“They [Orange] then said that the price rise was in line with Ofcom guidelines as it was not to my 'material detriment' so I could only cancel with a fee -a nd would I like to pay it? They also said that although I was not aware of the change in the terms I was still bound by them.

I replied pointing out that my contract didn't include the term material detriment and again asked them to tell me precisely when they changed my term sto include the term and to provide me with proof that they had made any effort to to tell me (or anyone else).”



“As for Ofcom guidelines being just guidelines – you’re right. Strange then, that in my first response from Orange they told me that they were allowed to increase the prices on the basis that they were in iine with Ofcom guidelines – and made no reference to the terms I’d actually signed up to. They seem to want to pick and choose which guidelines they want to use.”



“Emailed the Executives office and got a standard email back talking about the price rise and how they can do it. Totally ignoring that the complaint was about them changing the terms and conditions!

Sent the letter via first class recorded, think this is going to be a pen and paper job.”



“If you signed up before November2012, and haven't kept an original copy (assuming you were given one), the Ts&Cs on Orange's website won't be the ones you originally agreed (as they've change them). The actual ones you would have agreed to can be found on a link earlier in this thread or or at Tom Forth's website (link also in the thread above).”



“Got a standard letter from EE saying that I couldn't cancel because their increase followed Ofcom regulations.

Called them and spoke to someone in cancellations to ask for a deadlock letter- she didn't know what that was and will get a manager to call me back.

The case continues...”



“Weve phoned Orange and asked what T&C's apply to my partners account. They couldnt tell us over the phone, but stated they would send out a copy which should be received within 10 days. They also confirmed this with a text message. Well today was the 10th day and nothing has been received, so need to chase this up.

We also sent a message to the Orange Facebook team asking which terms and conditions apply to the account, giving them the date the account started and also account number and asked them to quote a couple of the terms. Needless so say, they quoted the wrong terms and conditions!”



“EE are a tricky bunch of vipers and I would not place ANY reliance on which T&Cs they say you are on. Remember they caught DamePeggy out this way - they have tried to catch me out on my TM contract and they have misled TSandCS on their TM t&Cs by confusing which T&Cs people re on.”



“Just received a response from Orange helpers who've directed me to a link to the October 2012 terms confirming that is the set i'm on. I joined February2012 so was never told about the change. Seems I can start gathering evidence?”



“FROM Orange – note it does not mention that Ryan was not informed that his T&Cs have changed – because they have not, EE are simply making Ryan THINK they have,

Hi Ryan,
Thanks for your reply.
Your agreement started on 28/03/2012.
As terms and conditions can be updated or changed, please refer to the latest ones available to view.
Kind Regards

So it appears i now have written confirmation that I am indeed on a differentset of terms than the ones I have signed. What is my next step? CISAS?”

DamePeggy

I'd be happy to add my name to your comments to Ofcom about how we've been misled about the contents of our Ts&Cs. I can PM you with my details if you want to add them.

Both my partner and I have both asked EE where the Ts&Cs are on their website, both been told they are there, but not where. Then when we've asked for the direct link we've both been told that they will no longer engage in correspondence on this issue.

They have refused to answer whether anyone at all has been informed of the change in Ts&Cs from V14A to V15 - or whether we have been singled out for special treament. I can send you this correspondence if you like too.

RandomCurve

DamePeggy wrote: »

I'd be happy to add my name to your comments to Ofcom about how we've been misled about the contents of our Ts&Cs. I can PM you with my details if you want to add them.

Both my partner and I have both asked EE where the Ts&Cs are on their website, both been told they are there, but not where. Then when we've asked for the direct link we've both been told that they will no longer engage in correspondence on this issue.

They have refused to answer whether anyone at all has been informed of the change in Ts&Cs from V14A to V15 - or whether we have been singled out for special treament. I can send you this correspondence if you like too.

It would have more impact if you (and others) could email Ofcom directly - just a short note along the lines of:

" I am writing in connection with the way Orange have behaved in responding to queries over its recent price rise. In all of my attempts to engage with Orange to challenge the validity of the price rise they have continually quoted the T&Cs applicable to their newer contracts and to quote phrases only applicable to the newer contracts thereby making it almost impossible for all but the most determined of customers to bring a coherent case against them to CISAS.

It is my understanding that other EE (Orange and T-Mobile) customers have alerted you to these tactics before and I request that Ofcom investigate this matter."

The staff to send this to are:
[EMAIL="Graham.Howell@ofcom.org.uk"]Graham.Howell@ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="Lynn.Parker@ofcom.org.uk"]Lynn.Parker@ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL]

You could also copy in the following reporters who I have been in contact with to try and ignite some media attention:
[EMAIL="Edwin.lane@bbc.co.uk"]Edwin.lane@bbc.co.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="joel.taylor@ukmetro.co.uk"]joel.taylor@ukmetro.co.uk[/EMAIL]

nsabournemouth

Trading Standards say that if a contract term has changed you are bound by the previous terms, the ones you signed. Ofcom also told me that material detriment can't be defined so I asked if that is the case why can EE tell me that the increase isn't a detriment to me. He couldn't answer that.

On speaking to EE Executive office: 0800 0790 134 the woman there, Blanca Wallace told me that they don't have to tell me why it isn't of MD to me, She also said that the current terms are enforceable and valid and as such they can put the price up even if it is a company decision and hasn't been put on them by Gov or law.

As per 4.3.1 on the old and new tariffs, she said she would have to go backto her legal team.

nsabournemouth

RandomCurve wrote: »

It would have more impact if you (and others) could email Ofcom directly - just a short note along the lines of:

" I am writing in connection with the way Orange have behaved in responding to queries over its recent price rise. In all of my attempts to engage with Orange to challenge the validity of the price rise they have continually quoted the T&Cs applicable to their newer contracts and to quote phrases only applicable to the newer contracts thereby making it almost impossible for all but the most determined of customers to bring a coherent case against them to CISAS.

It is my understanding that other EE (Orange and T-Mobile) customers have alerted you to these tactics before and I request that Ofcom investigate this matter."

The staff to send this to are:
[EMAIL="Graham.Howell@ofcom.org.uk"]Graham.Howell@ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="Lynn.Parker@ofcom.org.uk"]Lynn.Parker@ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL]

You could also copy in the following reporters who I have been in contact with to try and ignite some media attention:
[EMAIL="Edwin.lane@bbc.co.uk"]Edwin.lane@bbc.co.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="joel.taylor@ukmetro.co.uk"]joel.taylor@ukmetro.co.uk[/EMAIL]

This is my email that has just been sent:


I am writing in connection with the way Orange have behaved in responding to queries over its recent price rise. In all of my attempts to engage with Orange to challenge the validity of the price rise they have continually quoted the T&Cs applicable to their newer contracts and to quote phrases only applicable to the newer contracts thereby making it almost impossible for all but the most determined of customers to bring a coherent case against them to CISAS.

It is my understanding that other EE (Orange and T-Mobile) customers have alerted you to these tactics before and I request that Ofcom investigate this matter.

I have been told that material detriment can't be defined so I asked if that is the case why can EE tell me that the increase isn't a detriment to me. Blanca Wallace from EE told me that they don't have to tell me why they say so. Her letter tells me that 3.3% is considered to be reasonable, I should be the judge if a price increase is reasonable or not.

This is the old 4.3.1:

4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All
Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly Digest of Statistics in
any 12 month period

This is the new version to which Blanca Wallace told me I am bound by:

4.3.1 we give you written notice to increase the Charges (as a percentage) by an amount equal to or less
than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices or any other statistical measure of
inflation published by any government body authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time,
and published on a date as close as reasonably possible before the date on which we send you written notice.

As advised by trading standards I am bound by the terms and conditions that I agreed back in Aug last year, not the new ones that they now refer to.

RandomCurve

I have post on the T-Mobile price rise forum as follows - you my like to send your thoughts on Ofcom and Orange to the BBC via this link too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10725415

T-Mobile forum post:
"Please use the link below to submit a news item to the BBC asking them to investigate Ofcom's inactivity.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10725415

It takes 2 minutes and you can keep it really brief:

"CISAS (the independent adjudicator appointed by Ofcom) is consistently ruling that the price rise applied by T-Mobile referred to the wrong months RPI figure and was therefore higher than allowed under its contracts. Despite 2 million customers being affected Ofcom refuse to step in and protect the consumer. Can you investigate?"

Or words to that effect.

Thanks "

nsabournemouth

Just had this email.

I have discussed the issue with our Legal team and they have advised the clause 4.3.1 has not changed and even it clause had changed this would not give you the right to cancel.

To date, Ofcom has not issued any guidance on what is likely to constitute 'material detriment', leaving it for Communications Providers to consider the matter on a case by case basis. This has resulted in different interpretations of what constitutes 'material detriment' by providers and when the obligations under General Condition 9.6 are triggered.

As Orange believe the changes are not of material detriment so I am sorry to advise you do not have the right to end your agreement.

Whilst I appreciate this may not be the response you had hoped for, I trust I have clarified our final position in this matter. I regret I am unable to offer any further assistance with this matter therefore, no further correspondence will be entered into.


Yours sincerely



Blanca Wallace
Executive Office,EE

DamePeggy

nsabournemouth wrote: »

Just had this email.
Whilst I appreciate this may not be the response you had hoped for, I trust I have clarified our final position in this matter. I regret I am unable to offer any further assistance with this matter therefore, no further correspondence will be entered into.

Well that statement is enough for you to take the matter to CISAS immediately.

As for the rest of their comment - it's typical of the wording that I received from them. That despite using terms from the new set (material detriment, the new clause over the phone), they never quite confirm that YOUR terms have actually changed, even if they never actually tell you that your terms have not - or why they're not available on the website.

So you have to take special care to show that they have informed you of the change to satisfy the requirements in the contract (see post #108 earlier in this thread for what these are). Electronic proof is likely required for this I'm afraid.

Then you can make the case on the basis of the change in Ts&Cs - that they allow EE to use a wider range of inflation figures and introduce 'material detriment' when previously all you had to show was detriment.

Good luck!