You can cancel your Orange contract!

powerful_Rogue

Another piece of evidence is to contact Orange Helpers via facebook as well. This is the message I sent them. You need to be so specifc so theres no way Orange can wriggle out of it.

Hi,
Im trying to find out some information about the terms and conditions of my contract with Orange, but not having much luck looking on your website as there are so many different variations listed so was wondering if you could help me please!
Im trying to find out which version apply to my contract and in particular what clauses 4.3 and 4.3.1 say.
Could you help with the above please. I took my contract out on the "Date" "Month" 2012. My account number is 123456.
Really hope you can help!
Thanks

powerful_Rogue

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

Hi DamePeggy,

Thats very interesting to read. Seems like the usual EE stance of talking rubbish though!

We still havent been able to lodge out CISAS claim yet as waiting for the final piece of evidence, which is turning out to be a struggle to get!

4th July - Phoned up to get a copy of T&C's. Advised they would arrive within 10 days. - Nothing received.

16th July - Phoned upto question why nothing has been received - Advised it must have been lost in the post. Asked to confirm address and promised we would receive a copy by the 19th July.

22nd July - Still nothing received. Spoke with "Customer Services" (If you can really call it that) and was interrogated as to why I hadnt received them! Man on phone kept on saying they had been sent out. Asked to speak to Manager and was put through to a chap called Ricky. He said that my first request was still being processed and would be another 2 days before they would be sent out! Asked him why everyone has been lying so far but he couldn't quite understand they question. He's promised he would send them via email and they would be receiving no later then 1830hrs tonight. Will wait and see!

I suppose its soemthing extra to add to the CISAS claim!

Needless to say, 1830hrs came and went and no email received.

Just on the phone to Orange speaking to yet another manager who said I will receive them within 24 hours. When questioned as to why the other manager told me I would get them within 2 hours he diverted my call back to the options menu!

Very stressful....thank goodness I record all my calls to Orange.

RandomCurve

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

Needless to say, 1830hrs came and went and no email received.

Just on the phone to Orange speaking to yet another manager who said I will receive them within 24 hours. When questioned as to why the other manager told me I would get them within 2 hours he diverted my call back to the options menu!

Very stressful....thank goodness I record all my calls to Orange.

Can you not go to CISAS with a compliant that Orange won't tell you what contract you are on?

Also if any of you are also in TM twilight zone when they submit evidence to CISAS they include a schedule which is a simple screen shot from their customer contact system which is called a "Change Contract Information" screen - it clearly states which contract you are on (although they got it wrong in my case - and some other so I understand).

I suggest that you Call them and ask

1. What is my AGREEMENT NUMBER? Then
2. Ask them to use that to access the "Change Contract Information" screen to confirm the START DATE of your contract, finally say
3. "While I'm on the line can you confirm what contract version the system shows me as being on in the field marked "CONDITIONS Ver. No." which is exactly half way down that screen"!!

That should make them squirm a bit!!!!

anna2007

DamePeggy wrote: »

I note that in the Tmobile thread, people have been arguing on the basis of OFT guidelines that any ambiguity should be considered in favour of the customer – would this be true of a clause that isn't ambbiguous in the slightest? Are there any other, more relevant points I could raise?

I think the OFT guidance/UTCCRs are more relevant to your Orange case than the T-Mobile cases!

If the clause doesn't refer to RPI at all, but only the "monthly digest of statistics", then the clause is unambiguous on this point. But then how does the consumer know which statistic is the relevant one for the contract, given that the digest no longer exists? To me, that creates an ambiguity. The fact that Orange has referred to RPI in their defence, when it isn't specifically referred to in the terms, adds to the ambiguity.

For my T-Mobile case, I stressed the point to CISAS that when I received notice of the price increase, it was very clear to me that the relevant RPI rate was the current one, and I therefore didn't think the clause was ambiguous. However, by T-Mobile claiming to have used an RPI rate yet to be published, along with other facts such as the timing of the letter, they had created the ambiguity, by claiming a different interpretation.

It might help to include a comment along these lines in your own case, i.e. the clause refers to the digest, whereas Orange are referring to RPI? I referred to the OFT guidance and legislation in my own case, but I know that some of the other T-Mobile complainants didn't, and the adjudicators found the clause to be ambiguous (and therefore found in favour of the customer).

I think it's important to be clear on your own interpretation and, if this is different from Orange's interpretation (which clearly it is!), the term is ambiguous under the legislation.

Hope this helps - good luck!

powerful_Rogue

RandomCurve wrote: »

Can you not go to CISAS with a compliant that Orange won't tell you what contract you are on?

Also if any of you are also in TM twilight zone when they submit evidence to CISAS they include a schedule which is a simple screen shot from their customer contact system which is called a "Change Contract Information" screen - it clearly states which contract you are on (although they got it wrong in my case - and some other so I understand).

I suggest that you Call them and ask

1. What is my AGREEMENT NUMBER? Then
2. Ask them to use that to access the "Change Contract Information" screen to confirm the START DATE of your contract, finally say
3. "While I'm on the line can you confirm what contract version the system shows me as being on in the field marked "CONDITIONS Ver. No." which is exactly half way down that screen"!!

That should make them squirm a bit!!!!

Thanks RC. Ive got a fair bit to goto CISAS with, however was hoping Orange would send out the new T&C's and that would be the final nail in the coffin so to speak.

Its far too frustrating talking to Orange, as all you seem to get is lies. Tomorrow i'll submit a CISAS application and put in for some compensation for failing to supply t&c's and also poor customer service.

Christiangaz777

I have been promised by Orange that my contract will be cancelled free of charge. I spoke to a guy, thankfully English and told him the problems I have been having (sim card and phone replacement, sent a complaint letter to EE they said I have to pay 400 odd quid) And he said try the sim in another phone and if it doesnt improve over Sunday to Monday he will tell his manager to cancel my contract. 3 urgent emails to his attention, but after 1 day still no call back. Wish me luck hope he calls soon and he can deliver on his promise

DamePeggy

Having had another look through the V14A terms (the original pre-October Ts&Cs). There are TWO clauses that apply to whether or not Orange/EE have informed you that your Ts&Cs have changed. These are clausese 16.1 AND 19.9 – I’m not sure why two are included but they’re as follows:
“Customer Communications.
16.1 We update our Customer Communication from time to time. Information on various topics is
mailed to Customers with their monthly billing statements and/or made available to
Customers with their e-bill on Your Account and is available on request from us. You are
asked to read your Customer Communications and to keep those which are mailed to you
until they are superseded. We regard you as having been given any information if it is either:
a) included in a mailing addressed to you,
b) by voicemail, email, text or other form of electronic message sent by us to your Device,
c) communicated directly by any means (including any information made available to Customers
with their e-bills).”

“delivering communications to you
19.9 All notices to be served in accordance with your Contract must be served by post or facsimile.
We can in addition serve notice to you by voicemail, email, text or other form of electronic
message. They will be deemed served 48 hours after they are sent, or on earlier proof of
delivery. All invoices and notices served by post will be sent to the address given by you on
Registration unless you notify us of a change to this address. Any waiver, concession or extra
time we may allow you is limited to the specific circumstances in which it is given and does
not affect our rights in any other way.”

I’m not sure there is a specific relevance to the term ‘notice’ in Clause 19.9, but I would think that a tweet pointint you to updated terms would definitely fall into the “other form of electronic message” category and so could be used as evidence that EE have indeed changed your Ts&Cs.

ryan92

DamePeggy wrote: »

Having had another look through the V14A terms (the original pre-October Ts&Cs). There are TWO clauses that apply to whether or not Orange/EE have informed you that your Ts&Cs have changed. These are clausese 16.1 AND 19.9 – I’m not sure why two are included but they’re as follows:
“Customer Communications.
16.1 We update our Customer Communication from time to time. Information on various topics is
mailed to Customers with their monthly billing statements and/or made available to
Customers with their e-bill on Your Account and is available on request from us. You are
asked to read your Customer Communications and to keep those which are mailed to you
until they are superseded. We regard you as having been given any information if it is either:
a) included in a mailing addressed to you,
b) by voicemail, email, text or other form of electronic message sent by us to your Device,
c) communicated directly by any means (including any information made available to Customers
with their e-bills).”

“delivering communications to you
19.9 All notices to be served in accordance with your Contract must be served by post or facsimile.
We can in addition serve notice to you by voicemail, email, text or other form of electronic
message. They will be deemed served 48 hours after they are sent, or on earlier proof of
delivery. All invoices and notices served by post will be sent to the address given by you on
Registration unless you notify us of a change to this address. Any waiver, concession or extra
time we may allow you is limited to the specific circumstances in which it is given and does
not affect our rights in any other way.”

I’m not sure there is a specific relevance to the term ‘notice’ in Clause 19.9, but I would think that a tweet pointint you to updated terms would definitely fall into the “other form of electronic message” category and so could be used as evidence that EE have indeed changed your Ts&Cs.

Then again, not everyone uses Twitter so you could argue against that. It is their responsibility to ensure that the notice is given to everyone and not those that use Twitter. Just a thought

DamePeggy

ryan92 wrote: »

Then again, not everyone uses Twitter so you could argue against that. It is their responsibility to ensure that the notice is given to everyone and not those that use Twitter. Just a thought

Sorry, I think we’re discussing different points. Yes Orange sh ould have informed everyone properly that they’ve changed their Ts&Cs - but they have not done so. What they have done is simply change the document on their website and the scripts for their call centre staff to fob people off who wanted to cancel on the basis of the original terms (V14A) and then pretended that nothing really has changed.

When I took them to CISAS on the basis that they’d changed the Ts&Cs they said it was up to me to prove that they had actually changed the Ts&Cs on my account. Although Orange did not deny that I’d been read the new terms repeatedly and was pointed to the new ones on the site, I had no written or electronic proof that they had used them. CISAS accepted their argument (rather perversely I thought) on the basis that they could not find specifc notification of the change ‘in my attached correspondence’.

Had I had a tweet pointing me to the new Ts&Cs as being relevant to me, I think I would have had a better case.

If I had received the tweet that pointed to the new Ts&Cs I would have written to cancel immediately on the basis of the change of Ts&Cs, stating that this tweet was sufficient to satisfy both Clauses 16 C and 19.9. that Orange had notified me of the change. Especially as I’d been read the new terms on numerous occassions to deny my right to cancel. Then I’d await their response.

RandomCurve

Received EEs defence yesterday.

They are admitting I am on the old contract and are admitting that the clause refers to a government body that no longer exists, but are claiming the body issuing the stats is irrelevant. l will respond that it is entirely relevant -otherwise why have the T&Cs been updated?

Also claiming that their actions are "not to my detriment". My response will be that if the directors have to act for the benefit of EE then the price rise must be of benefit to EE and therefore by definition is of detriment to me!

Here's hoping that CISAS see it the same way.