Bitcoins

paddyrg

Scrootum wrote: »

Why has it never happened before though? Just being digital makes little difference over any other rare but intrinsicly worthless item.

Remember LETS schemes, they were the latest thing to threaten the big currencies last decade sometime. Intrinsically I'm not convinced bitcoin is any different, although with a massive speculation bubble on top of it. Fascinating technology, but in 5 years time we'll see if it is an Amazon or a Boo.

Must admit I'd expected a collapse sooner, so maybe it's here forever (in something other than junk/novelty status), or maybe the hypegasm hasn't collapsed yet. I do see the massive volatility as a bad thing for long term viability though. If my bitcoin stash will buy a computer one day and house the next, then either that entire supply chain has to be valued in BTC or someone's going to get shafted unless they cash out immediately... in which case the price was never in BTC but it was just the transfer mechanism.

As a transfer of value where the BTC is held for as short a period as possible then I can see some use for triangulating between two other currencies if the in/out timescales and rates are appropriate. If it remains a volatile speculation vehicle then it is pork bellies. Time will tell I suppose. Just to refind speculators though that it's always good to walk away when you're up on the game, it's very easy to double down on losses which can cost dearly!

lvader

JohnRo wrote: »

It has everything to do with too big to fail, unless you want to argue what that means to deflect the issue.

Savings guarantees are funded by printing even more money and devaluing that held by everyone else further. When a financial institution is in trouble savings held with it are affected just as much as everything else.

The "guarantee" is worth about as much as every piece of paper it's written on.

That was my point it is guaranteed as long as we don't have a complete collapse of the financial system. Under that unlikely scenario I don't expect Bitcoin to be worth anything.

Scrootum

Seem to remember fro history lessons about tulip bulbs trading at the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of pounds. Seems rather similar.

sabretoothtigger

The Dutch central bank pointed out recently, tulip bulbs do have a use, a purpose even and value because of it. Its surprising how much some flowers can be sold for.
The big problem is BTC has no intrinsic value but please dont say it has no use or purpose. To some I imagine it could be essential.

I think the biggest negative argument is that btc is not unique. Many other copy cat coins exist but their networks are not quite as good.
So for high value or long term profits, it does need a USP like they say on dragons den.

Sterling has an army to back it and a government demanding taxes - 2bn is paid by people who never visit UK but gov charges taxes on their shares. Inland revenue have the legal power to command local army in collection HMG taxes
Thats a USP

lvader wrote: »

That was my point it is guaranteed as long as we don't have a complete collapse of the financial system. Under that unlikely scenario I don't expect Bitcoin to be worth anything.

In that case we should look globally. Venezuela registers inflation of 50%
Why should you care about them, they are a major oil producer and everyone uses their products to work.
They do have influence on world gdp, on finance and if they have use of BTC its a confirmation of a useful product.
Any trading nation must help partners with helpful products, maybe this is one product they need UK to continue even if we think its pointless. We have that freedom and ease they lack I guess
http://www.businessinsider.com/venezuela-creates-vice-ministry-of-supreme-social-happiness-to-combat-sadness-2013-10

One story about Venezuela is the plane tickets are so expensive because they are full of people being sent abroad to pick up dollars.
Every traveller is allowed to bring some back and they command such a premium it has forced tickets up, normal travellers must use the slower roads or compete with this physical money transfer.
What premium does BTC charge

BoracicLint

Sethan wrote: »

Cryptocurrency might very well be the future.That's not what I'm contesting. But I am sure (as any 1 interest-free individual can be) it won't be bitcoins. At most,bitcoins will serve as a lesson. Bitcoin hasn't sank so far just because of the innate desire to innovate. However no successful idea came without failed attempts.And since I haven't saw any in btc so far,I can only expect for it to happen. In the end it's like other things in life and it is about the freedom to choose.Some eat snails and find them a delicacy...I won't ever touch them. So what's to take from that: I'm not trying to influence or change anyone's view or opinion,I'm just expressing mine to the best of my ability.

Good day.

The beauty of Bitcoin being open source is that the entire community can contribute to its development, the code can be modified by anyone, but is only implemented if the majority of the network concurs, allowing it to adapt to unforseen problems it encounters, in a democratic manner.

Much like eating snails, many people instinctively go on the defensive before they've even tried it. Fear of the unknown will always be a barrier to innovation.

Satoshi

Are there any laws about renting out a property for bitcoins?

If you accepted bitcoins as rent how could you work out tax?

If someone wanted to stay out of the financial/banking system that is their choice right?

this is a good interview about the CIA in bitcoins

http://dont-tread-on.me/?p=31796

BoracicLint

Sethan wrote: »

It's not fear.I just like snails when they're alive.They're fun to hang around :rotfl:
I know it's open source and if I put my paranoid hat means that certain people skilled enough in the field may act just as a government.But let's get back to real things. While btc can remain alive it can work as a payment method.Trade...a currency swap.Nothing more.Saving or even enough investing, like Winklevoss wonder brothers want to do is purely insanity. So while btc can be used to certain extents as a payment method, when it comes to investing or saving based on btc,short of speculation there is nothing.It is like betting, or like the NYSE type "investing".
Sure,innovation is good,but doesn't mean it anywhere near flawless. Actually I guess that's what jolts me about btc...supporters claiming it's near-god pristine character.

I agree the notion that Bitcoin is a sound investment is nonsensical, I think anybody who is prepared to speculate more than 1 or 2% of their wealth into Bitcoin needs to seriously reconsider the risks. I bought Bitcoin because I was curious, I wanted to understand it and at the time it was purely speculation. I was lucky enough to make a 400% return, and have since cashed out.

However I continue to follow Bitcoins' development, as I do believe that it really is a revolutionary idea. I also have my reservations, particularly as mining is becoming more complicated, barring all but the wealthiest and technologically equipped, creating a digital elite...much like the central banks are to fiat currency.

Satoshi

You could've made about $400 off each Bitcoin you own within a 2-3 hour span. But its not as high frequency as gold trading. Bitcoin transactions can take from 10mins (unlikely) to hours in my case or some have said days.

Before you buy an ad that are ALL over market values, some are almost double the market value with payout methods with zero risk, Post an ad YOU ARE COMFORTABLE BUYING AT, If you are new and wanted to buy with paypal, its ok to go over some, but $1,300 WU trades when Gox just dropped below $700.00 is flat out abuse. I feel bad when an old ad I was selling bitcoins for a lot more than the price and some newbie wants to buy at that higher price. If you have any questions or need something please ask Ill be happy to guide you the best I can, Because I overpaid for a good two months before I understand how crazy it was.

You can easily work out the cheapest places to buy bitcoins and then advertise them for sale at a profit, just buy the dips and sell the peaks. Since I have been trading there have been some huge swings bitcoin halves in price then doubles in short spaces of time. This will continue in the future with some even larger swings with an upwards trend until it goes to nothing which I think will be after the dollar and all unbacked fiat currencies go to nothing.

JohnRo

BoracicLint wrote: »

I agree the notion that Bitcoin is a sound investment is nonsensical, I think anybody who is prepared to speculate more than 1 or 2% of their wealth into Bitcoin needs to seriously reconsider the risks. I bought Bitcoin because I was curious, I wanted to understand it and at the time it was purely speculation. I was lucky enough to make a 400% return, and have since cashed out.

However I continue to follow Bitcoins' development, as I do believe that it really is a revolutionary idea. I also have my reservations, particularly as mining is becoming more complicated, barring all but the wealthiest and technologically equipped, creating a digital elite...much like the central banks are to fiat currency.

Unlike central banks, privileged acess and manipulation, there is no way miners, or any other individual or organisation, can directly influence the value of your bitcoins or how you choose to use them, other than through the free market.

JohnRo

Sethan wrote: »

That's the sort of mechanic that populates most of NYSE type trading. And it is ok if you know exactly what you're getting yourself into. BTC at this point is very unstable.You can win big or lose big. I saw the Chinese ban on the banks to use BTC,and I knew immediately the price will plummet.And surely enough it did.Big time. So what people need to understand is that BTC while possibly can develop into a viable alternative,it is as dependant on banks and governments like any fiat currency.Maybe even more.For BTC to stabilize,it needs to loose the overpricing.And once it does that,I wonder how many of the fans will prove to be real adopters of btc and stick with it,and how many were just looking for a quick cash day.

Panic selling because the news from China was misunderstood.

Bitcoin isn't dependent on banks and governments - that is a ridiculous statement. It has got to where it is despite them.

** ( although given the corrupt cesspit they oversee it could reasonably be argued -because- of them I suppose.)

What I think you mean is that it is to some degree, dependent on banks and governments not trying everything they possibly can to shut it down. It's still in the very early stages of its development and adoption and already has governments all around the world waking up to what it really is.

All this fear and ridicule is sort of understandable I suppose but it really doesn't have much influence on bitcoin and what it really is or what it is going to become.