German kitchens

cyclonebri1

Furts wrote: »

I respect the opinions regarding Mereway and quality. However, there is a fundamental flaw with this. It is the association with John Lewis. I will now explain for the benefit of all mse users - for this is a money saving site.

If I want quality and value when I go shopping for groceries, I would visit my local Lidl or my local Aldi. Both are within five miles of me.
I would not choose John Lewis because the prices higher, the quality no better and the travelling distance is at least ten miles. In other words, John Lewis costs me and for no commercial reason.

I accept that if it was "Come Dine With Me" I would not brag about groceries coming from Aldi or Lidl. Without any doubts I can state John Lewis has a cache.

Now let me explain the relevance to kitchens.

If I wanted a Mereway Kitchen I would not associate it with John Lewis. Why would anyone make this statement? I would not say I want some Adidas so I must go to John Lewis. My point is I would go direct to Mereway and establish the following as a minimum;

Whose hinges, handles, drawer boxes, closers, doors, mfc panels etc do you use?
Where do you source these from?
Can I source these cheaper by buying them myself?

Having removed the involvement of John Lewis I have reduced my costs and improved the price comparison versus a German kitchen. I might then decide to remove the involvement of Mereway and sort everything myself.

It is disingenuous for those in the kitchen industry to associate Mereway with John Lewis, when the average consumer does not shop in John Lewis, would not order a kitchen through John Lewis and could, if not would, seek a more economic supply chain.

Such an argument justifies brand image, brand association, high prices etc. This is fine if people wish to pay this, or be sucked into this. But a reasoned debate on kitchens does not have to follow this route.

In three weeks I am having a kitchen installed. It does not come from John Lewis. It is manufactured in the UK. It is not a Mereway. The quality is quite acceptable. It did not cost "German" prices. I did source it myself . This was not difficult.

:T:T:T:T And this is the bit all the retail guys on here are ignoring, the bold bit above that is.:T:T:T:T:T Nice considered post and a very good counter point, it sometimes has to be restated, ie, the actual purpose of this site.:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Fit for purpose or pay the extra for style MSE buyers choice,

I would say 1 thing though, given a choice of say 8 differnt shades of finish for each wood, not styles, and 3 or more levels of finish/laquer or whatever I wonder how many folks are left thinking they wish they had gone that shade darker or more matt:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: I'll never have that ptoblem:rotfl:

ryder72

Furts - since you have made your point, I presume you also grow your own food, sew your own clothes, build your own cars. Presume you have also baked the bricks that built your house and if you have indeed done all of this, I have nothing but praise for you.

Most of the rest of the world doesnt have the time, inclination and ability to do this and they must therefore specialise in something (whatever that may be) and barter the proceeds of their speciality with other peoples' speciality. This is the basis of the modern economy.

Once we have come to accept this reality, it follows then that one associates with brands and the ethos that are identifies with the brand.

With relevance to the kitchen, Mereway wont sell anyone kitchens directly and nor will component manufacturers and distributors. Mereway sell to John Lewis who badge it as their own and some buyers indeed go to independents and find that the same kitchen doesnt have the John Lewis markup. So why do people pay the JL markup - because it is associated with reliability, quality and peace of mind and one has to accept, judging by JL's success that lots of people value this. You may not and thats fine, but to judge the world by your own yardstick is a bit strange.

My point was that our 'premium' German kitchens are cheaper than JL marked up Mereway units and therefore probably on par with that independents would charge for the kitchen. This is my attempt to break down the German premium misconception.

Would it be dearer than Howdens or B&Q - almost certainly but again you have to accept that the people have aspirations and indeed that keeps the world moving.

I would love to see pictures of your home-made kitchen (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense at all) when its finished.

CKdesigner

Hi Furts

Most people wouldn't know Mereway, and saying they are the manufacturer of John Lewis kitchens it gives them a point of reference.

I must also mention that I think we are all losing sight of the value a proper kitchen designer brings to a new kitchen project. Its not all about buying a set of units as cheaply as possible.

CK

Leif

Furts wrote: »

If I want quality and value when I go shopping for groceries, I would visit my local Lidl or my local Aldi. Both are within five miles of me.
I would not choose John Lewis because the prices higher, the quality no better and the travelling distance is at least ten miles. In other words, John Lewis costs me and for no commercial reason.

Some goods from those shops are excellent, but in general I would not put the quality on a par with Waitrose (part of the John Lewis Partnership), nowhere near, except for branded goods. As an example, I recently made some scones with orange and lemon peel. Morrisons peel, which I expect to be comparable to Aldi/Lidl, is 40% fruit, Waitrose peel is 80% fruit. Which is the better quality? Which is the better value? The cost per unit weight of fruit is no higher at Waitrose, and the quality is much better. Cheap does not necessarily mean better value, which you would know if you looked at the ingredients listed on the packets. Mind you, the ingredients list is not always accurate, as we all know.

I must declare my background for the sake of honesty. I used to work on the wet fish and cheese counters at John Lewis, 30 years ago. The managers were vile, truly vile.

Back to kitchens, it is hard to accurately judge quality. Going by specs alone is not enough. Generally if something is cheap, there is a reason for it being cheap i.e. corners have been cut. I had a cheap kitchen in a flat I rented some years ago. The edge strips were falling off, and the carcasses were expanding. It was not very old either, maybe a few years old when I moved in. I expect it was a low end B&Q or equivalent. My mother's kitchen must have been at least 10 years old, and it was in better condition. Which offered the better value?

When I comes to furniture, I know enough to judge quality. A lot of modern 'wood' furniture is actually made from veneers. Solid wood from places like Oak Furniture Land (other shops are available) can offer better value, because laminated MDF/chipboard is not as tough and hard wearing as solid hardwood. Kitchens are harder to judge, because they are all ostensibly the same, but I suspect they are not. Unfortunately in the furniture and kitchen trade there is a lot of flim flam, which is stating the obvious really.

Furts

ryder72 wrote: »

Furts - since you have made your point, I presume you also grow your own food, sew your own clothes, build your own cars. Presume you have also baked the bricks that built your house and if you have indeed done all of this, I have nothing but praise for you.

Most of the rest of the world doesnt have the time, inclination and ability to do this and they must therefore specialise in something (whatever that may be) and barter the proceeds of their speciality with other peoples' speciality. This is the basis of the modern economy.

Once we have come to accept this reality, it follows then that one associates with brands and the ethos that are identifies with the brand.

With relevance to the kitchen, Mereway wont sell anyone kitchens directly and nor will component manufacturers and distributors. Mereway sell to John Lewis who badge it as their own and some buyers indeed go to independents and find that the same kitchen doesnt have the John Lewis markup. So why do people pay the JL markup - because it is associated with reliability, quality and peace of mind and one has to accept, judging by JL's success that lots of people value this. You may not and thats fine, but to judge the world by your own yardstick is a bit strange.

My point was that our 'premium' German kitchens are cheaper than JL marked up Mereway units and therefore probably on par with that independents would charge for the kitchen. This is my attempt to break down the German premium misconception.

Would it be dearer than Howdens or B&Q - almost certainly but again you have to accept that the people have aspirations and indeed that keeps the world moving.

I would love to see pictures of your home-made kitchen (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense at all) when its finished.

A good response.

To clarify an issue, I have never tried to purchase a kitchen through Mereway. My instinct is Mereway would supply me any kitchen I was interested in. If they declined, which I think is unlikely, I would order via a merchant and pay perhaps 2.5% handling charge

The notion of a trade supplier is a smokescreen. I can purchase Blum hinges and boxes, Morello handles, Marpatt doors, Marpatt carcass, Egger mfc boards in any colour one wishes - either as full sheets or cut and lipped panels etc. I am not unique in this -any other mse user could do the same.

Basically, there are cost effective ways of obtaining a reasonable quality kitchen without having to go to a German kitchen manufacturer.

However, I respect people buying German kitchens. It is a free country and people have the choice on whom and where they wish to purchase.

It is kind that you would seek a picture of my finished kitchen. I am not a kitchen designer or fitter, so you would be underwhelmed by my design and details! That said it will be adequate for my intended use.

leveller2911

ryder72 wrote: »

Once we have come to accept this reality, it follows then that one associates
with brands and the ethos that are identifies with the brand.





With relevance to the kitchen, Mereway wont sell anyone kitchens directly and
nor will component manufacturers and distributors. Mereway sell to John Lewis
who badge it as their own and some buyers indeed go to independents and find
that the same kitchen doesnt have the John Lewis markup. So why do people pay
the JL markup - because it is associated with reliability, quality and peace of
mind and one has to accept, judging by JL's success that lots of people value
this. You may not and thats fine, but to judge the world by your own yardstick
is a bit strange.





My point was that our 'premium' German kitchens are cheaper than JL marked
up Mereway units and therefore probably on par with that independents would
charge for the kitchen. This is my attempt to break down the German premium
misconception.





Would it be dearer than Howdens or B&Q - almost certainly but again you
have to accept that the people have aspirations and indeed that keeps the world
moving.

From reading replies I've come to the conclusion that its all about the "brands" and flexibility but very little about actual quality of components and workmanship.My reasoning being not one kitchen designer promoting German Kitchens will post the actual specification of the units openly on the thread which I find suspicious.Do people promote/sell German kitches because everyone and his brother sell mass produced British kitchens and profit margins per kitchen are much lower, niche market selling a "lifestyle" equels high profits?.

As an example if you look at the link below you will see a "designer" shelving unit.Its constructed from MDF material costs of no more than £100-00 and would take a Joiner or carpenter no more than 2 days to make.

http://www.nest.co.uk/browse/product-type/bookcases/-/kristalia-shellf

They sell for over £3,000 each, there is very little skill in making it , constructed from average quality materials but the "Brand" value dictates its worth.From what I have seen of German kitchens (admittedly limited) the materials used are no better than than those used in the UK so the value can only be "Brand value". Would I want to pay a premium for something who's material quality is average ? personally no but each to his/her own.

Maybe I'm just getting cynical and grumpy as I get older..........

cddc

leveller2911 wrote: »

As an example if you look at the link below you will see a "designer" shelving unit.Its constructed from MDF material costs of no more than £100-00 and would take a Joiner or carpenter no more than 2 days to make.

http://www.nest.co.uk/browse/product-type/bookcases/-/kristalia-shellf

They sell for over £3,000 each, there is very little skill in making it , constructed from average quality materials but the "Brand" value dictates its worth.From what I have seen of German kitchens (admittedly limited) the materials used are no better than than those used in the UK so the value can only be "Brand value". Would I want to pay a premium for something who's material quality is average ? personally no but each to his/her own.

Maybe I'm just getting cynical and grumpy as I get older..........

This is just the way of the world, it applies to everything, you pay for style not for substance. I used to work for Fired Earth. What they sold was beautiful, but in most cases it was the brand name that dictated the price, and the quality of the product was no better than you could buy elsewhere, but people buy the brand not the product. They used to offer tiles with the company name effectively engraved into them. People used to get them just to show visitors where they bought their floor from.

In many cases, this applies to a "branded" German kitchen. Yes the rigidity of the units and quality of the doors are better. The styles are sleek and a few years ahead of what the mainstream UK sheds and manufacturers offer. But you pay a premium for this. It is for the style, and to say you have a German kitchen that is as much a reason for buying one as for its potential longevity.

Furts

cddc wrote: »

leveller2911 wrote: »

This is just the way of the world, it applies to everything, you pay for style not for substance. I used to work for Fired Earth. What they sold was beautiful, but in most cases it was the brand name that dictated the price, and the quality of the product was no better than you could buy elsewhere, but people buy the brand not the product. They used to offer tiles with the company name effectively engraved into them. People used to get them just to show visitors where they bought their floor from.

In many cases, this applies to a "branded" German kitchen. Yes the rigidity of the units and quality of the doors are better. The styles are sleek and a few years ahead of what the mainstream UK sheds and manufacturers offer. But you pay a premium for this. It is for the style, and to say you have a German kitchen that is as much a reason for buying one as for its potential longevity.

With the quality of the doors being better where do these get sourced? Who are the manufacturers of these? All knowledge is gratefully received!

I have referred to my kitchen being UK manufactured but this does not include the doors. Whilst they are from a UK company I suspect these are French or Italian.

I have recently removed solid oak doors from an ordinary, small, 1988 house. I know these were UK manufactured, and to my surprise they were snapped up for refurbishment, They had received 25 years of family abuse but there were no open joints, warping, shakes or splits. Was I ignorant of their value, or is this to be expected?

keystone

cyclonebri1

ryder72 wrote: »

Furts - since you have made your point, I presume you also grow your own food, sew your own clothes, build your own cars. Presume you have also baked the bricks that built your house and if you have indeed done all of this, I have nothing but praise for you.

Most of the rest of the world doesnt have the time, inclination and ability to do this and they must therefore specialise in something (whatever that may be) and barter the proceeds of their speciality with other peoples' speciality. This is the basis of the modern economy.

Once we have come to accept this reality, it follows then that one associates with brands and the ethos that are identifies with the brand.

With relevance to the kitchen, Mereway wont sell anyone kitchens directly and nor will component manufacturers and distributors. Mereway sell to John Lewis who badge it as their own and some buyers indeed go to independents and find that the same kitchen doesnt have the John Lewis markup. So why do people pay the JL markup - because it is associated with reliability, quality and peace of mind and one has to accept, judging by JL's success that lots of people value this. You may not and thats fine, but to judge the world by your own yardstick is a bit strange.

My point was that our 'premium' German kitchens are cheaper than JL marked up Mereway units and therefore probably on par with that independents would charge for the kitchen. This is my attempt to break down the German premium misconception.

Would it be dearer than Howdens or B&Q - almost certainly but again you have to accept that the people have aspirations and indeed that keeps the world moving.

I would love to see pictures of your home-made kitchen (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense at all) when its finished.

What a condescending post, you should strip off and thrash yourself with olive twigs.

He has an opposing view to you, as do I, kindly accept it, rather than rubbish it, unless of course you consider your views gospel?

You want a pic?, of a homemade or jerry built kitchen? (ooooh there's a bone of contention

Check out the stuff I posted earlier or https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/1742805

Post ~274 I think, That is now a 17 year old MFI kitchen fitted by me, that's the biggy, it was done RIGHT.