German kitchens

cyclonebri1

cddc wrote: »

Most would agree that, in general, the quality and construction of most German carcasses is better that than anything made in the UK, the question is is it worth the price premium?

A good quality UK made flatpack (or rigid) should last 15-20 years plus if well fitted, by which time the syle and look of the kitchen is likely to have dated however well made the product, and the frontals are likely to be damaged or stained by this stage anyway.

Yes the rigidity and strength of the units is better, the options for storage solutions are more varied and interesting. But there is a price to pay for all of this. You pay your money and make your choice.

This is the whole point of my comments, why pay the extra, or as the OP asked is it worth the extra.

Given that our average UK Kitchen fitter could screw up any installation I'd say it isn't.

And if you want an example of how a well fitted kitchen can last, I have just posted in a thread about granite, there are pics of my kitchen that had recently had now granite tops fitted. The tops were quality German made but use and a little abuse had left there mark, (delaminating) in wet areas. Only other thing to be changed has been the handles and that was just a facelift really.

That kitchen is now around 17 years old and came from MFI, the cheapest around at the time (too cheap for their own good apparently).

And why has it lasted, they were only 15mm carcases?

It's because it was fitted correctly, and didn't rely on flimsy plastic legs, each corner and centre point is shimed on plastic spacers and it hasn't moved a milimetre


I don't have any argument that German Kitchens are better made than other stuff, but I do know that you don't have to go to that expense inspite of what our resident retail guys may say.

It ain't just me either, take a hike around Ikea any day of the week, their kitchens seem fine for many punters.;);)

Leif

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

It ain't just me either, take a hike around Ikea any day of the week, their kitchens seem fine for many punters.;);)

Yes, I know a number of people who have Ikea, and love it. One person fitted the kitchen himself.

Another thing to look at is solid wood kitchens. There are a few companies that do solid pine or bass wood carcasses, which compete in price with many wood pulp carcasses, though not Ikea. Here is one example:

http://www.solidwoodkitchencabinets.co.uk/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=contact&sid=3p8iptq1ab3n862m3m50p4n596s7b88w

I should add that I have never dealt with this company, so I have no idea if they are reliable. It is worth mentioning the Manchester based cowboy, who is a well known crook, and sells solid wood kitchens which are sh ... sub-standard. Caveat emptor.

CKdesigner

Hi Everyone

I wish I had more time to post a more in depth reply but I am far too busy at the moment designing and selling kitchens to give the full response I would ideally like to. That's why I am in work on a Sunday as I have for several months now.

As far as I can see from previous posts that some people think that you are paying a premium for a German kitchen and that they can't see that they are better in terms of quality.

To be honest I think there is far too much generalization going on here and far too little specifics. I think to get a comparison you have too pick a similarly priced and specified English manufacturer of kitchens to a specific German brand, as there are some very cheap poor quality makes of German kitchens and some that are right at the top of the game. It kind of sounds like kitchen manufacturers from this country doesn't it!

I can't speak for other German brands but we do 2 different ones, a middle market one and a top market one. With the middle market one I really don't see a 'German premium' The closest English make of kitchens in terms of quality and specification I believe is Mereway (the manufacturer of John Lewis kitchens). I have a basic kitchen design for an 11 unit kitchen, and our cheapest price point compared to Mereway's cheapest price point for the same kitchen is about 10% cheaper and our price includes a quality laminate worktop. In fact with this 11 unit kitchen we are at DIY store flat pack kitchen prices. Then when you consider we can offer far greater choice of doors and colours and much greater flexibility of design with a catalogue of unit sizes many many times greater than Mereway or a DIY store it ... well I don't think I need say anymore about this really.

Then another post referenced 'Bespoke'. With our other German brand we can do 3 different lacquer finishes in absolutely any colour, any wood and I mean any wood! We can also do any size, basically if I can draw it and technically it will work then our supplier can make it. We also do some amazing materials that other manufacturers couldn't even dream of using. Now obviously this kind of versatility, quality and design does come at a price but I like to think it still represents good value.

And finally just to be clear we don't do the 2 German makes of kitchens we do because they are German. There is nothing we would like more than to do English made kitchens but there just isn't any English manufacturers that can offer the quality, design and flexibility we and our customers require at the same price points.

CK

Mrs_Arcanum

We have a Haker fitted over 8 years ago and all still seems to be great. Major bonus is the legs for the units allow the kick boards to be removed so you can clean under properly. The legs are solid sturdy things as well, rather than the skinny things supplied with MFI style units. It was comparable in price to most other makes too.

gilie28

Hi Gregd

I too am in the middle of a 2 storey extension. After much research and saving I went for a Nolte kitchen. I am very happy and satisfied with the design and plan.
I did look into the other german kitchens but for me it was personal choice to settle for the Nolte. The others are just as great.

leveller2911

CKdesigner wrote: »

Hi Everyone

I wish I had more time to post a more in depth reply but I am far too busy at the moment designing and selling kitchens to give the full response I would ideally like to. That's why I am in work on a Sunday as I have for several months now.

As far as I can see from previous posts that some people think that you are paying a premium for a German kitchen and that they can't see that they are better in terms of quality.

To be honest I think there is far too much generalization going on here and far too little specifics. I think to get a comparison you have too pick a similarly priced and specified English manufacturer of kitchens to a specific German brand, as there are some very cheap poor quality makes of German kitchens and some that are right at the top of the game. It kind of sounds like kitchen manufacturers from this country doesn't it!

I can't speak for other German brands but we do 2 different ones, a middle market one and a top market one. With the middle market one I really don't see a 'German premium' The closest English make of kitchens in terms of quality and specification I believe is Mereway (the manufacturer of John Lewis kitchens). I have a basic kitchen design for an 11 unit kitchen, and our cheapest price point compared to Mereway's cheapest price point for the same kitchen is about 10% cheaper and our price includes a quality laminate worktop. In fact with this 11 unit kitchen we are at DIY store flat pack kitchen prices. Then when you consider we can offer far greater choice of doors and colours and much greater flexibility of design with a catalogue of unit sizes many many times greater than Mereway or a DIY store it ... well I don't think I need say anymore about this really.

So what 2 brands do you sell CKD?.

Then another post referenced 'Bespoke'. With our other German brand we can do 3 different lacquer finishes in absolutely any colour, any wood and I mean any wood! We can also do any size, basically if I can draw it and technically it will work then our supplier can make it. We also do some amazing materials that other manufacturers couldn't even dream of using. Now obviously this kind of versatility, quality and design does come at a price but I like to think it still represents good value.



No difference from a bespoke British kitchen company.All the companies I know of that do bespoke kitchens will not only do 3 different lacquers they will also do any degree of shine/gloss finish from 10%-100% and also any type of wood and all make their own units,any size and pretty much only limited by someones imagination but as you say there are cost implications.


And finally just to be clear we don't do the 2 German makes of kitchens we do because they are German. There is nothing we would like more than to do English made kitchens but there just isn't any English manufacturers that can offer the quality, design and flexibility we and our customers require at the same price points.

CK

I think we are playing catch up in regards to flexibility. Can you post the specifications of the 2 German kitchens you sell CKD(carcase,hinges,drawer runners etc). As someone who knows very little about German kitchens where do Poggenpohl fit, entry level,mid range etc?.

CKdesigner

leveller2911 wrote: »

I think we are playing catch up in regards to flexibility. Can you post the specifications of the 2 German kitchens you sell CKD(carcase,hinges,drawer runners etc). As someone who knows very little about German kitchens where do Poggenpohl fit, entry level,mid range etc?.

Hi Leveller or anyone else who would like this information.

Please send me a PM with your email address and I would be more than happy to send you all the specification and links etc.

CK

redfox1939

German kitchens are about design, quality, value and functionality seamlessly blended together. German kitchens have a breathtaking ‘wow factor’. They seems to be worth every penny and much of the effort to try.

ryder72

CKDesigner makes an excellent point about the perceived premium pricing if indeed there is one.

Speaking on CKDesigner's price comparison - we carried out a similar one on our German range with Mereway as sold through John Lewis on their 9, 14 and 19 unit kitchens and in each of the 3 scenario's and on about 8 finishes ie about 24 variations we came out between 10% & 22% cheaper.

I hope that puts things into perspectives. If anyone wants to see the comparison, PM me. There has got to be something to be said about this.

Furts

CKdesigner wrote: »

Hi Everyone

I wish I had more time to post a more in depth reply but I am far too busy at the moment designing and selling kitchens to give the full response I would ideally like to. That's why I am in work on a Sunday as I have for several months now.

As far as I can see from previous posts that some people think that you are paying a premium for a German kitchen and that they can't see that they are better in terms of quality.

To be honest I think there is far too much generalization going on here and far too little specifics. I think to get a comparison you have too pick a similarly priced and specified English manufacturer of kitchens to a specific German brand, as there are some very cheap poor quality makes of German kitchens and some that are right at the top of the game. It kind of sounds like kitchen manufacturers from this country doesn't it!

I can't speak for other German brands but we do 2 different ones, a middle market one and a top market one. With the middle market one I really don't see a 'German premium' The closest English make of kitchens in terms of quality and specification I believe is Mereway (the manufacturer of John Lewis kitchens). I have a basic kitchen design for an 11 unit kitchen, and our cheapest price point compared to Mereway's cheapest price point for the same kitchen is about 10% cheaper and our price includes a quality laminate worktop. In fact with this 11 unit kitchen we are at DIY store flat pack kitchen prices. Then when you consider we can offer far greater choice of doors and colours and much greater flexibility of design with a catalogue of unit sizes many many times greater than Mereway or a DIY store it ... well I don't think I need say anymore about this really.

Then another post referenced 'Bespoke'. With our other German brand we can do 3 different lacquer finishes in absolutely any colour, any wood and I mean any wood! We can also do any size, basically if I can draw it and technically it will work then our supplier can make it. We also do some amazing materials that other manufacturers couldn't even dream of using. Now obviously this kind of versatility, quality and design does come at a price but I like to think it still represents good value.

And finally just to be clear we don't do the 2 German makes of kitchens we do because they are German. There is nothing we would like more than to do English made kitchens but there just isn't any English manufacturers that can offer the quality, design and flexibility we and our customers require at the same price points.

CK

ryder72 wrote: »

CKDesigner makes an excellent point about the perceived premium pricing if indeed there is one.

Speaking on CKDesigner's price comparison - we carried out a similar one on our German range with Mereway as sold through John Lewis on their 9, 14 and 19 unit kitchens and in each of the 3 scenario's and on about 8 finishes ie about 24 variations we came out between 10% & 22% cheaper.

I hope that puts things into perspectives. If anyone wants to see the comparison, PM me. There has got to be something to be said about this.

I respect the opinions regarding Mereway and quality. However, there is a fundamental flaw with this. It is the association with John Lewis. I will now explain for the benefit of all mse users - for this is a money saving site.

If I want quality and value when I go shopping for groceries, I would visit my local Lidl or my local Aldi. Both are within five miles of me.
I would not choose John Lewis because the prices higher, the quality no better and the travelling distance is at least ten miles. In other words, John Lewis costs me and for no commercial reason.

I accept that if it was "Come Dine With Me" I would not brag about groceries coming from Aldi or Lidl. Without any doubts I can state John Lewis has a cache.

Now let me explain the relevance to kitchens.

If I wanted a Mereway Kitchen I would not associate it with John Lewis. Why would anyone make this statement? I would not say I want some Adidas so I must go to John Lewis. My point is I would go direct to Mereway and establish the following as a minimum;

Whose hinges, handles, drawer boxes, closers, doors, mfc panels etc do you use?
Where do you source these from?
Can I source these cheaper by buying them myself?

Having removed the involvement of John Lewis I have reduced my costs and improved the price comparison versus a German kitchen. I might then decide to remove the involvement of Mereway and sort everything myself.

It is disingenuous for those in the kitchen industry to associate Mereway with John Lewis, when the average consumer does not shop in John Lewis, would not order a kitchen through John Lewis and could, if not would, seek a more economic supply chain.

Such an argument justifies brand image, brand association, high prices etc. This is fine if people wish to pay this, or be sucked into this. But a reasoned debate on kitchens does not have to follow this route.

In three weeks I am having a kitchen installed. It does not come from John Lewis. It is manufactured in the UK. It is not a Mereway. The quality is quite acceptable. It did not cost "German" prices. I did source it myself . This was not difficult.