No VAT registered...showing VAT in quote, NOT in invoice

Chopper_Read

roblos71 wrote: »

Hi again,

made some phone calls to get some advice...

I try to explain my point of view in a different way...bear with me

1) I was going to pay him in full (the advice not to pay him 20% was from HMRC yesterday but on the phone, not written)

2) this is not the first job the plumber does for me (always paid in full previously) but so far someone else used to manage my bookkeeping. I realised that in all his quotes he writes that prices are inclusive of VAT. When I compare the quote with someone who is actually paying VAT I think the price is fair, but when I started checking his invoices I found out he was not actually paying any VAT (no mention of VAT in the invoice) thus:

a) he was actually charging me more than his fair share of profits compare to VAT registered tradesmen quoting the same
b) he was making me believe he was paying VAT with the words in his quotes

Now..ok for point a) it's my fault not to check that at first...but for point b) I was wondering if this behaviour is legal

What I expected, in this forum, was someone to introduce himself as an accountant, for instance, and tell me that the quote and invoice are legally ok so there is peace of mind...or no..they are not ok and I would have told the tradesman.

Trading Standards told me that, from their point of view, the way the quote is written makes the customer believe that VAT will be paid and the amount is the same as on the invoice so in theory I have been charged VAT (but they're not VAT expert)

HMRC (VAT helpline) say that, because no word about VAT is on the invoice, they're not bothered.

So I'm back to square one. My question: can anyone suggest where I can have the quote and invoice checked?

In a different forum (similar issue), I found some people agreeing that making people believe that VAT will be paid, for a non VAT registered business, is a criminal offence and it should be reported. The topic was quite old and only business users can post in that forum so unfortunately I cannot ask any reference supporting the issue.

Hopefully my question is clear now...

Thx for help,
Roby

So in short you agreed a price and are now looking for a discount.

System

roblos71 wrote: »

2) this is not the first job the plumber does for me (always paid in full previously) but so far someone else used to manage my bookkeeping. I realised that in all his quotes he writes that prices are inclusive of VAT. When I compare the quote with someone who is actually paying VAT I think the price is fair, but when I started checking his invoices I found out he was not actually paying any VAT (no mention of VAT in the invoice) thus:

a) he was actually charging me more than his fair share of profits compare to VAT registered tradesmen quoting the same
b) he was making me believe he was paying VAT with the words in his quotes

so he quoted and you accepted the quote and now you don't want to pay what was agreed? I have a feeling this will not only be the first job he does for you, it will also be the last!

roblos71 wrote: »

What I expected, in this forum, was someone to introduce himself as an accountant, for instance, and tell me that the quote and invoice are legally ok so there is peace of mind...or no..they are not ok and I would have told the tradesman.

pay an accountant if you want legal advice to escape paying your dues

roblos71 wrote: »

Trading Standards told me that, from their point of view, the way the quote is written makes the customer believe that VAT will be paid and the amount is the same as on the invoice so in theory I have been charged VAT (but they're not VAT expert)

HMRC (VAT helpline) say that, because no word about VAT is on the invoice, they're not bothered.

so what you have is conflicting advice, although really hmrc is the one to take as it's their rules you are trying to use to avoid paying the agreed amount now the job is complete

Obviously what you are trying to do is use the wording of a quote to avoid a payment, how about you pay the agreed quote and invoice then report the tradesman to hmrc as they will be the only people who the vat is due to anyway

roblos71

Chopper_Read wrote: »

So in short you agreed a price and are now looking for a discount.

in short: "My question: can anyone suggest where I can have the quote and invoice checked?"

justjohn

[QUOTE=roblos71;
In a different forum (similar issue), I found some people agreeing that making people believe that VAT will be paid, for a non VAT registered business, is a criminal offence and it should be reported. The topic was quite old and only business users can post in that forum so unfortunately I cannot ask any reference supporting the issue.

Hopefully my question is clear now...

Thx for help,
Roby[/QUOTE]
yes that is correct,

however the thing you keep ignoring is, that's not what he has done.

its also illegal not too include a vat number on a vat invoice.
neither of which this guy has done.

because you want to scam him you are reading what you want into it.

roblos71

I also got conflicting advice from two different accounts (friends of mine) on the phone but I was not given any reference.

Basically Trading Standards told me I cannot report to them because they're no VAT expert and HMRC told me I cannot report to them because there is no word VAT on the invoice....

I guess this tradesman is smarter than all, including all those other people that are actually paying VAT and having their profits reduced.

I am not avoiding the payment (that's the advice I got yesterday, to ask for a reduction) but I would like to know to whom I should report him IF I should report him

the_r_sole wrote: »

pay an accountant if you want legal advice to escape paying your dues



so what you have is conflicting advice, although really hmrc is the one to take as it's their rules you are trying to use to avoid paying the agreed amount now the job is complete

Obviously what you are trying to do is use the wording of a quote to avoid a payment, how about you pay the agreed quote and invoice then report the tradesman to hmrc as they will be the only people who the vat is due to anyway

justjohn

roblos71 wrote: »

in short: "My question: can anyone suggest where I can have the quote and invoice checked?"

HMRC...either way interpretation will be down too them.

justjohn

roblos71 wrote: »

I am not avoiding the payment (that's the advice I got yesterday, to ask for a reduction) but I would like to know to whom I should report him IF I should report him

no need too report, just pay the bill and give yourself a good shake...job done

System

roblos71 wrote: »

I am not avoiding the payment (that's the advice I got yesterday, to ask for a reduction) but I would like to know to whom I should report him IF I should report him

HMRC - i.e. the people who enforce the vat legislation, from the information you have given you already know this but you are hoping that someone is going to tell you not to pay the guy and save a bit of money

roblos71

justjohn wrote: »

because you want to scam him you are reading what you want into it.

as written before...people here are NOT reading that I was given the advice NOT to pay him in full, in other words it was not my idea

My request for advice was to find out if things had been done properly on both the invoice and the quote or they should be reported (to avoid people been scammed by him in case he's not done things legally)

System

roblos71 wrote: »

as written before...people here are NOT reading that I was given the advice NOT to pay him in full, in other words it was not my idea

My request for advice was to find out if things had been done properly on both the invoice and the quote or they should be reported (to avoid people been scammed by him in case he's not done things legally)

and you have already said you contacted hmrc and they have told you that you don't have any reason to report the invoice - but seemingly you are unwilling to take that advice, the advice of the body capable of enforcing their own rules! :mad: