The most expensive KFC ever!!!!

RuncornGaz

Thanks all,
Coupon-Mad, appreciate the final thoughts. Naturally, I have tidied up the font size etc and changed all the tenses to ensure the letter reads correctly.

Guys-Dad, I agree the letter is a bit of a "mish-mash" as it combines some of my own simple statements with some examples of points to argue which I was made aware of ...

The letter has yet to be posted, so I may take out the legal jargon (which I found in a template letter, I assume it's meant solely to waste some of the PPC's time responding to the questions?).

Whatever wording makes the final draft, I'm sure the PPC will pass the "appeal" onto POPLA so I may be back here after my holiday to get some expert advice on that one ...

Thanks again

Guys_Dad

RuncornGaz wrote: »

Whatever wording makes the final draft, I'm sure the PPC will pass the "appeal" onto POPLA so I may be back here after my holiday to get some expert advice on that one ...

Thanks again

Not sure if you meant what is written above, but the process is as follows.

You appeal or make representations to the PPC, making sure that they know it's an appeal and also that you want the POPLA code. POPLA will NOT get involved unless you have had your appeal turned down by the PPC.

But it is you who must then, after rejection from the PPC, appeal to POPLA. They don't pass anything on at all, preferring that you don't use POPLA as it costs them money.

RuncornGaz

Yes thanks, I changed the letter in the end, removing most of the legal jargon and calling it an "appeal" for clarity.
I argued on the basis that no permit was required (free parking bays) and that the PCN was unfair and unreasonable.

The last sentence asked them to provide me with a Popla code in the event that my appeal was rejected.

Cheers

Coupon-mad

The legal challenge stuff can wait for the POPLA appeal then. You will need a long list of points in that, whereas this appeal to the PPC is a sham usually. Very rare that a PPC actually cancels of their own volition so think of it as a step towards a proper appeal.

MerseyBoy

Hi all, MerseyBoy here, formerly RuncornGaz (problem with password!).

After several weeks of no correspondence from Excel, finally got a reply rejecting my appeal - no surprise there!
Not only that, they tried to up the parking charge from £60 to £100, stating that I had not paid/appealed within a 14 day period. Had to phone to quote them their own terms and conditions, which stated that all charges put on hold if you appeal within 28 days, which I did, and had an email back from them confirming receipt of said appeal on the same day! Muppets.
Anyway, they have very graciously agreed to return my charge to the original £60, not that I have any intention of paying.

I'm posting because a while ago many of you suggested I would have my appeal turned down, and to come back for some advice before writing to Popla, which is what I am doing. I only have a few days before my 28 day period expires, so any help would be much appreciated. I know these appeals need to be more technical than the PCN appeal, so without stating all the facts again you should be able to find my individual circumstances in the thread above. Assume I would have to appeal on the final point, parking ticket not valid?

Looking through various threads on this and other forums I note that some people have enjoyed considerable success with Popla and others in similar circumstances have had no joy.

Thanks in advance

Coupon-mad

MerseyBoy wrote: »

Hi all, MerseyBoy here, formerly RuncornGaz (problem with password!).

After several weeks of no correspondence from Excel, finally got a reply rejecting my appeal - no surprise there!
Not only that, they tried to up the parking charge from £60 to £100, stating that I had not paid/appealed within a 14 day period. Had to phone to quote them their own terms and conditions, which stated that all charges put on hold if you appeal within 28 days, which I did, and had an email back from them confirming receipt of said appeal on the same day! Muppets.
Anyway, they have very graciously agreed to return my charge to the original £60, not that I have any intention of paying.

I'm posting because a while ago many of you suggested I would have my appeal turned down, and to come back for some advice before writing to Popla, which is what I am doing. I only have a few days before my 28 day period expires, so any help would be much appreciated. I know these appeals need to be more technical than the PCN appeal, so without stating all the facts again you should be able to find my individual circumstances in the thread above.

Assume I would have to appeal on the final point, parking ticket not valid?

Looking through various threads on this and other forums I note that some people have enjoyed considerable success with Popla and others in similar circumstances have had no joy.

Thanks in advance

Not just one point of appeal at POPLA, never! If you are wondering about which box to tick, then tick them all except the 'stolen car' one.

And we have 100% success at POPLA where new posters have used our wording (or wording suggested by pepipoo forums) since March onwards when we saw what it was that made the POPLA adjudicators' minds tick! The 'appeal refused' cases on the 'POPLA decision' threads at the top of this forum are ALL old ones or cases where the poor victims haven't asked for advice and just sent a short basic appeal (Noooo!!).

Here are a load of links I gave someone yesterday, to show examples of POPLA wording to include:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4653023

And a POPLA appeal I wrote as SchoolRunMum on pepipoo, post #4 here. Bear in mind this was written for an overstay allegation so you will need to change some wording but the main points are relevant:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?...0&gopid=826768

And a winning POPLA appeal where no ticket was purchased (BUT WARNING this one is far too rambling to copy verbatim so don't!!):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=76548&st=20&p=785597

Let's see what you put together from all those links and any other POPLA appeals you can find by searching on here and on pepipoo.

HTH

Guys_Dad

MerseyBoy wrote: »

Hi all, MerseyBoy here, formerly RuncornGaz (problem with password!).

After several weeks of no correspondence from Excel, finally got a reply rejecting my appeal - no surprise there!

Important! Date you sent appeal and date you received their rejection, please.

From the BPA Code of Practice

Operator procedures

22.4 If a driver or keeper challenges a parking charge you must
review the case and decide whether to:
• uphold the parking charge and explain why it was
issued and should therefore be paid, or
• reduce or cancel the charge and take no further
management action other than informing the driver.
22.5 If the driver is due a refund of any fees, you must include
that payment – or written confirmation that you have
made the payment – with your reply.
22.6 When you receive a challenge about the issue of a
parking charge, you must stop work on processing the
charge immediately. You must not increase the charge
until you have replied to the challenge.
22.7 We consider it a reasonable timescale to allow 28 days
from the issue of the parking charge notice (in whatever
format you send it) to allow the driver, keeper or hirer to
challenge the enforcement action.
22.8 You must acknowledge or reply to the challenge within
14 days of receiving it. If at first you only acknowledge
the challenge, you must accept or reject the challenge in
writing within 35 days of receiving it. We may require you
to show that you are keeping to these targets.

MerseyBoy

Hi,
I sent my appeal via email on April 19 and received an automated response from Excel that same day, stating that they acknowledged my appeal and would write to me by post in due course.

I received the letter rejecting my appeal, and increasing the fine to £100, on May 24.

By my count that's exactly 35 days! It didn't arrive on the 24th however, but that was the date on the top of the letter.

MerseyBoy

Thanks again everyone, CM tried to send you a PM but not sure whether it got through ...

Anyway, I'm a little lost trawling through the various forums as to which points I should raise in the Popla appeal relevant to my case. I note several recent successes at Popla where the operator has failed to provide evidence of their entitlement to issue PCNs, however I did not request to see this information from Excel.

For reference, here is the letter sent to Excel which was rejected. The points I argued were thanks to excellent advice received on this forum, so hopefully you will be able to point me towards the appropriate challenge to put in my Popla letter. Coupon Mad, the links above are very informative, thank you (first one appears broken) just not sure which parts i can use ..

My letter:
I write to acknowledge receipt of a Parking Charge Notice, reference ****** issued by your company on **** This Notice relates to the hire of a vehicle from the Enterprise Group, registration ****** I can confirm I was the hirer of this vehicle at the time of the alleged “contravention”.

The PCN refers to an alleged breach of the terms and conditions in the privately operated car park at the Peel Centre, in Stockport. The alleged contravention – dated ***** was for “parking without displaying a valid ticket/permit”.

Please note this correspondence is an appeal against the issue of the Notice to Driver as set out in the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22. In respect of this, I should be grateful for answers to the questions raised below and remind you of your obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

On the day and at the times in question, I was parked in an area reserved for customers of the KFC restaurant, clearly marked by red lines on either side of each parking bay. The signs above the restaurant parking bays - which are clearly separate from the other bays used for shoppers of the retail stores – make no mention of a need to obtain a ticket/permit here. Having since spoken to the (duty) manager of the restaurant, he indicated that customers are not expected to pay for parking when collecting takeaway meals.

The copies of the photographs you have provided along with the Parking Charge Notice show the hired vehicle entering and leaving the car park, but do not show where the vehicle was parked for the duration of the stay. Please therefore provide me with copies of all photographs that evidence the actual alleged parking contravention (i.e. that I was parked in the general car park (for which tickets are required) and not the customer parking for the KFC restaurant).

It is your claim that upon entering the Peel Centre Car Park, I entered into a contract with Excel Parking. I am aware that Excel Parking has no proprietary interest or legal ownership in the Peel Centre or the car park, so cannot therefore make contracts with drivers, nor are you in any legal position to allege trespass or loss. Please send me a complete version of the terms and conditions of that contract to which you say I agreed to.

Even if there was a contract (which I contest), I believe the £60 “discounted” parking charge you are imposing to be both unfair and unreasonable given the nature of the short stay (32 minutes) in this instance and the perfectly normal time taken to collect a takeaway from a restaurant at busy times. Under contract law you are only entitled to claim for any loss of revenue suffered by the alleged offence. I note that parking at the Peel Centre for between 0-2 hours is charged at £1, and not the £60 you are asking for.

Given that I was clearly parked in the restaurant bays (and spent a considerable amount of money there), I was not preventing other shoppers from using the retail centre parking bays, thus resulting in no “loss” to the landowner. As the penalty charge is exorbitantly high, I would respectfully ask for a breakdown of how any “losses” incurred by my stay in the reserved restaurant parking have been calculated.

I also believe the charge to be unfair (and therefore not binding) under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. In particular, Schedule 2 of those Regulations which gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e):

‘Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.’

I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement of this letter within 14 days. If you fail to address the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.

So, given the content of my appeal above, is there any particular angle I should go for with Popla.

Many thanks

Coupon-mad

''...however I did not request to see this information from Excel.''

Not yet, no! Nor do most people at first challenge stage.

But you must include all such new points at POPLA stage if you want to win. Excel do get the chance to send in their 'evidence' when POPLA send them a copy of what you say in your appeal. So you can and should add ANYTHING relevant.

I did just see your pm and have made the link work again, hope it helps as it listed a few POPLA appeal examples.

And unless you received the rejection by day 35 then it was late, so you can cite that among your list of failures to comply with the BPA Code of Practice; a thrilling read for you to pore over & note down the lack of compliance (or think of the potential non-compliance that you can allege). E.g. for camera-issued fake PCNs you can't possibly know if any PPC complies with the ANPR section of the BPA CoP - but you can certainly suggest to POPLA that you think Excel do not. This then shifts the burden to Excel to prove otherwise.

Same with all your points - a POPLA appeal should be lots of hurdles set up all in a row for any PPC to fall at - which is why we suggest so many and such a long appeal.