The most expensive KFC ever!!!!

Half_way

Thanks guys, so do I just write to the parking violation team at enterprise quoting what you said and asking for a refund?

Dpnt ask them for a refund, demand a refund, infact why waste money on a stamp unless you have to, phone them, call in ( if possible) e-mail them, then and only when youve tried everything write a letter before action.

hillcats

I'd be sending a letter similar to that in the link provided in my first post, demanded they refund the admin fee , how did they take it by credit card?, if so theres another avenue if they remain stubborn. if they still refuse after say 14 days I'd be thinking about an unauthorised transaction against them then I'd be on the phone within a few days followed by a visit...

Tilt

No doubt you paid for the rental by Credit or debit card. In which case you could do a charge back for the admin fee.

RuncornGaz

That's right tilt, they have my debit card details (not credit card) which I used to pay for the hire car. They have simply billed me the £35 on that card.

My thoughts are to email enterprise, I have phoned and got nowhere... And if that fails, then try a chargeback via my building society, nationwide - do they do chargeback?

As for excel, I presume they will write to me separately now that enterprise have passed on my details, so no further "admin fees" should be incurred through a third party. Again, should I just ignore or write back refusing to pay quoting many of the arguments in the above thread.
Thanks for all your input

BASFORDLAD

Yes of course u can try a charge back

Just ignore excel

Coupon-mad

RuncornGaz wrote: »

Thanks for the replies everyone

I can't find any T&Cs for Enterprise as the hire was a while ago and I didn't keep the paperwork once I had returned and paid for the car.

Do I just write to them demanding my money back, stating they should have forwarded the letter onto me?

No don't just write a random letter, you simply need to read and follow the lead shown by the letters/emails used in the threads already linked by Crabman.

And Enterprise should not have forwarded the letter to you at all, under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 they should have replied to Excel and named you as the hirer, giving your name and address. That is what lease/hire companies are advised to do by their industry trade body the BVRLA, because that gives them zero liability in these matters. Passing the fake PCN to you hasn't helped Enterprise, they played this wrong and haven't removed themselves from liability - which is plain stupid! If they had written to Excel with the hirer's name and address then Excel should have 'started again' and written to you, then you certainly WOULD NOT pay them (appeal or ignore were your choices, and still are).

RuncornGaz wrote: »

It says in the enterprise letter that the contract I signed with them accepts liability for any penalty notices and that I must pay the admin fee ... As I don't have that paperwork anymore I can't really contest it can I?

This wasn't a penalty or fine.

It is NOT covered by their t&cs at all, believe us - and you do not need the paperwork becuase Enterprise certainly have it. Why not start gently, by emailing/writing to ask for a copy of the t&cs they are relying upon because you think they played this fake PCN situation wrong. That would then mean you would have a copy of the t&cs and could also use it for a credit card chargeback if need be.

RuncornGaz wrote: »

Regarding Excel, will they write to me at all? As enterprise did not forward on the second page of the PCN, I had to phone Excel asking for the appeals address. They just have me the website address and asked me to fill in a form online, which incidentally I cannot find.

You can ignore or appeal the Excel fake PCN. I favour appealing nowadays because I think everyone should be using the 'independent' private land appeals stage, POPLA, to see the scammers off and to cost them money - they have to pay for the POPLA decision!

Just write or email to Excel, giving whatever complaint/appeal wording you like but finishing by telling them that if they reject your appeal you will proceed to appeal this fake PCN to POPLA and will require them to produce a copy of their contract with the Peel Centre. Say that you are also aware that Excel have no proprietary interest or legal ownership in the Peel Centre or the car park, so cannot make contracts with drivers, nor offer parking, nor are they in any legal position to allege trespass or loss.

See what Excel come back with, if they give you a POPLA form and 'verification code' then come back and ask us for help with the wording of the POPLA appeal. We have begun to learn what will be accepted by the POPLA adjudicator so we know what to say that should see this scam cancelled at Excel's expense.

Quite possibly Excel will cancel once they see you know about POPLA...then Enterprise will refund = easy!

Coupon-mad

RuncornGaz wrote: »

That's right tilt, they have my debit card details (not credit card) which I used to pay for the hire car. They have simply billed me the £35 on that card.

My thoughts are to email enterprise, I have phoned and got nowhere... And if that fails, then try a chargeback via my building society, nationwide - do they do chargeback?

Start by asking Enterprise for a copy of the t&cs because you dispute that it covers invoices from private companies and you want to know where they think it is covered.

Then, once you have the t&cs, you email Enterprise to complain, in the same sort of way that is mentioned in the two cases linked by Crabman. You demand a refund. Forget phone calls, write. At the same time you can demand a chargeback from your credit card provider stating that the deduction was unauthorised because it is not supported by the hire t&cs (explain how and show the car provider the difference, in that a fake PCN is an invoice for the driver to ignore/appeal/dispute, not a penalty, not a fine, not a parking ticket and not from any 'authority').

Stroma

If you go to nationwide ensure to put it in writing you can do so in their online banking I know I have when I banked with them, just disput the transaction. Tell them it's an unauthorised transaction, also state that Enterprise are in breach of the Protection of Freedom's Act 2012, and that they are also in breach of the BVRLA guidlines on how hire companies deal with this.

Basically just go for the jugular with them, inform them that if they don't refund your money for the illegal actions of Enterprise you will start proceeding against them and Enterprise, as they are jointly liable.

RuncornGaz

Thanks for all the advice, please see draft letter to enterprise demanding a refund for the Admin Fee. I have yet to receive anything from Excel (Enterprise said they would write to me separately), should I pre-empt or just ignore...

Any advice on which bits to trim/amend would be appreciated


Ref Contract number:*****

Dear Sir/Madam,

I write in reference to an invoice, and subsequent debitcard charge of £35, issued by your TrafficViolations Department in relation to my hire of the vehicle *******, between January 30 and February15 this year.

Whilst in possession of this vehicle, I received a ParkingCharge Notice from a private company called Excel Parking. The contravention wasfor allegedly “parking without a ticket/permit” at the Peel Centre inStockport. The amount of the charge is £100, reduced to £60 if paid in full within14 days.

The reason I write to you is to deny any debt owed to ExcelParking, who issued the ticked based on video evidence of the vehicle enteringand leaving the Peel Centre on February 8. During this time I wasquite clearly parked within the red bays reserved for customers of the KFCrestaurant. Should I receive any future correspondence from Excel, I will deny their claim against me.
As you will know, charges levied by private parkingfirms (such as Excel) are not legally enforceable and have come to be known bymany as “speculative invoices”. I believe that subsequent debit ofmy account for administration charges relating to “violations” incurred duringthe rental period also to be invalid. I enclose a copy of the relevant sectionof your own Terms and Conditions of hire for reference:

Section 3, Paragraph g

By signing the statement of liability on Page 1, youacknowledge that you will be liable as the owner, driver or operator of theVehicle for:

• Any fixed penalty offence committed with respect to theVehicle for the purposes of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (as amendedby the Road Traffic Act 1991) or the Road Traffic Offenders (NI)Order 1996;

• Any penalty charge notice issued in respect of the Vehicleunder the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003;

• Any excess charge or penalty charge for parking or for buslane
contraventions which may be incurred in pursuance of an orderunder sections 45 and 46 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 orunder section 66 of the Road Traffic Act 1991 or under section 144of the Transport Act 2000 or under section 44 of the Transport(Scotland) Act 2001 or under the Road Traffic (NI) Orders 1981 and 1985, theRoad Traffic Regulation (NI) Order 1997 or the Traffic Management (NI)Order 2005;

• Any charges and penalty charges incurred under a road usercharging scheme established pursuant to the Transport Act 2000, theGreater London Authority Act 1999 or the Transport (Scotland) Act2001;

• Any fixed penalty offence committed and any chargesincurred under the Road Traffic (Northern Ireland) Orders 1981 and 1995; and

• Any other penalty, charge or fine under any road trafficorder in effect in any jurisdiction where the Vehicle is driven until it isreturned, unless causedthrough our own fault.

The invoice issuedby Excel Parking is not a Penalty Charge Notice, nor is it a fine, nor any kindof notification of a traffic offence. It has not been issued by any UKauthority and was not issued as a result of a contravention of any current UKtraffic legislation. It is therefore not covered under the terms of my rentalagreement with Enterprise and therefore you had no authority to debitmy account as there was no legal requirement for Enterprise to takeany action on receipt of this invoice. I believe you to be in breach of yourown agreement here, in which clearly state you will charge "A reasonable administrationfee for processing any fines or offences against the Vehicle, you or usduring the rental period".

Your letter to me(dated March 8) states that “we are obliged as the owners of the hired vehicleto forward your details onto the relevant council/police force/parking agency whowill in turn re-issue the penalty to you.” Yet your own industry body, the BVRLA, doesnot list speculative invoices from Private Parking Companies under the list ofoffences for which you have a legal right to transfer liability to the driver ofthe hire car. The "offences" covered under Legislation ,Case Law or Agreement arelisted as follows:

Summary of BVRLA Members legalright to transfer liability

Offence
Vehicle subject to a valid hire or lease agreement ? 1st Yes
Transfer of liability permitted? 2nd Yes
Legislation, Case Law or Agreement

Parking Fine Yes Yes SI No. 3483 The CivilEnforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007
Speeding Fine
Yes Yes Road Traffic Act 1988

Bus Lane Fine
Yes Yes SI No. 2757 The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudicationand Enforcement)(England) egulations
2005

Congestion Charge Fine
Yes Yesv SI No. 2285 Road User Charging (Charges and Penalty Charges) (London)Regulations 2001
No Operator’s Licence
Yes Yes SI No. 3981 Goods Vehicles (Enforcement
Powers) Regulations 2001

Excise Fraud –Bootlegging
Yes Yes Memorandum of Understanding in1992
Traffic Offences

Yes Yes London Local Authoritiesand Transport for London Act 2003

Driving without a valid drivinglicence
Yes Yes Road Traffic Act 1988

Driving without a valid motorinsurance
Yes Yes SI No. 1606 The Road Traffic Act 1988 (Retention and Disposal of SeizedMotor Vehicles) Regulations 2005

So, as I understandit the registered keeper has no obligation to disclose the details of anydriver to a private parking facility operator and data processing rules underthe Data Protection Act 1998 would presumably prohibit this in any case. Youshould not therefore have forwarded the Parking Charge Notice (or a copy of it)from Excel, but simply replied to Excel directly, naming me as the hirer of thevehicle and giving my name and address. This is what you are advised to do bythe BVRLA as it absolves you of any liability.

Having spoken toone of your female representatives on the phone last week (8/3/2013), she informedme that Excel Parking are “well known to us”. She also confirmed that, should anyfuture successful appeal be made in respect of the PCN, the £35 administration chargewould be “refunded in full”. I do not find this acceptable however, nor do Iaccept in any case that a charge of £35 is “reasonable” for passing on my privatedetails when not legally obliged to do so.

Due to thosereasons given above, the charges against my credit card were unauthorised andshould be immediately refunded. Failure to credit my account with the £35 feewill leave me no recourse but to initiate a “charge back” via my bank, which Iwill do without hesitation.

Given the globalnature of the Enterprise brand it both surprises and disappoints me that youwould treat a loyal paying customer (I have used your Warrington branchpreviously) in this way. During the hire period my own car was in an accident repaircentre, and I took out additional insurance with your company at £5.99 per day,which totalled over £100 by the time my car was fully roadworthy. I wasalso charged £5 for a 30-second phone call to the DVLA, confirming my identity,this after being advised by a “junior member of staff” to bring my photocard ID withme, only to be told I needed the paper part of the licence on arrival. This isthe kind of service that will encourage me to use other hire car companies in future,and to advise my friends/colleagues to do the same.
I expect the matterof the Admin fee to be resolved and refunded immediately and look forward toreceiving your prompt reply.

Yours sincerely
*************

Coupon-mad

Looks OK to me. Let us know what they say as their t&cs clearly do not cover this invoice any more than it would cover an unpaid paper bill at your local corner shop!