Daughter 11 wants to go on a Christian camp

Robisere

First off, I have to say that I am a complete agnostic. I am not at all anti-religious, just cannot see where it is coming from. I guess that thousands of years ago, some guy told his neighbours that god speaks to him and wants them all to do this, that and the other - and organised religion was born.

However, I do not criticise those who believe, simply the ones who want to cram it down your throat, not to mention the many and various movements which want to slaughter those who do not share their beliefs.

I suspect that is why your OH is objecting to that, he may have had a similar experience to myself. My mother was a Primitive Methodist and my dad was an agnostic. His mum, my lovely old gran, was a Romany. She taught my dad belief in the Earth and everything that lived upon it.

My mother forced me to Chapel against my wishes and I hated it. We went on various outings, none of which did anything for me and the religious fervour of some of the adults just seemed stupid and ridiculous to me. Eventually I was able, with dad's help, to break away. I came to share in dad's beliefs. How can anyone watch all those priests and bishops, in those ridiculous garments, with any belief in their message, today? How can anyone living today, give serious credence to Bible stories of miracles? And if the world was in such trouble that some mythical Deity had to send his son down to cure it then, where is he now? Surely there is so much more to worry us today? No, we are on our own and the sooner all humans realise that, the sooner will millions of deluded people stop waiting for miracles and start doing something about the state of the world. And then start believing in themselves and their families and friends.

I think that anyone with reasonable intelligence should be able to see through any belief in Heaven, Hell, God or his opponent. Good and Evill certainly exist, amongst man on this planet, but if Heaven exists anywhere, it is right here on Earth, and so is the other place. It's what we make of it.

Torry_Quine

Robisere wrote: »

First off, I have to say that I am a complete agnostic. I am not at all anti-religious, just cannot see where it is coming from. I guess that thousands of years ago, some guy told his neighbours that god speaks to him and wants them all to do this, that and the other - and organised religion was born.
However, I do not criticise those who believe, simply the ones who want to cram it down your throat, not to mention the many and various movements which want to slaughter those who do not share their beliefs.

I suspect that is why your OH is objecting to that, he may have had a similar experience to myself. My mother was a Primitive Methodist and my dad was an agnostic. His mum, my lovely old gran, was a Romany. She taught my dad belief in the Earth and everything that lived upon it.

My mother forced me to Chapel against my wishes and I hated it. We went on various outings, none of which did anything for me and the religious fervour of some of the adults just seemed stupid and ridiculous to me. Eventually I was able, with dad's help, to break away. I came to share in dad's beliefs. How can anyone watch all those priests and bishops, in those ridiculous garments, with any belief in their message, today? How can anyone living today, give serious credence to Bible stories of miracles? And if the world was in such trouble that some mythical Deity had to send his son down to cure it then, where is he now? Surely there is so much more to worry us today? No, we are on our own and the sooner all humans realise that, the sooner will millions of deluded people stop waiting for miracles and start doing something about the state of the world. And then start believing in themselves and their families and friends.

I think that anyone with reasonable intelligence should be able to see through any belief in Heaven, Hell, God or his opponent. Good and Evill certainly exist, amongst man on this planet, but if Heaven exists anywhere, it is right here on Earth, and so is the other place. It's what we make of it.

Please don't make the mistake that many do on here in thinking that intelligience and faith are incompatible.

Are you sure you are agnostic, you sound more atheistic to me?

Soubrette

DJMschine wrote: »

I went at the wifes request to the Alpha course the church do, and I have to say that it is staggering the amount of psychologically manipulative pressure that they put on you from the minute you walk through the door.

I have a very devout friend(also happy clappy speaking in tongues baptist) who organises these courses, as an atheist I have never been on one but we have had some interesting discussions about the course in the past. He admitted that they try and put all the 'trouble makers' into the same discussion group. Of course from his perspective that's to allow the non questioners to have an easier journey towards Christianity and of course might not be the attitude that other groups have to questions.

Personally I wouldn't let my eleven year old go to such an intense experience, in the same way I wouldn't be keen for them to experience any kind of full on religious course for any other religion until they'd developed some critical skills. I want my daughters to examine, challenge and make their own minds up - even if it's with something I don't agree, but I don't think at 11 any child is quite there yet.

EvieSaver

I'm not religious but I have family members who are born-again evangelical baptists. I have been to a baby's dedication and a wedding and it was strange. The dedication had people crying while singing about being devoted to god. The parson spent an hour telling us all not to conform to society, we should pray and not shop was the main message. the wedding was very strange too. It was more like a funeral. The bride and groom had not even kissed before the wedding and didn't kiss at all during the day either. There was no 'you may now kiss the bride', there was no clapping or smiling. No make-up or hairspray. After the wedding there was a meal then home by 8pm. No music, no dancing, no alcohol. The bar at the venue wasn't even allowed to be open to serve soft drinks. We had to have water or schloer provided on the tables. The speeches were about god.

The people I'm talking about go to youth groups (even though they are older now), they go on christian beach holidays etc. They believe in creationism.

If my child was 11 I wouldn't want them to be alone with these people for a week. Just my opinion.

Torry_Quine

EvieSaver wrote: »

I'm not religious but I have family members who are born-again evangelical baptists. I have been to a baby's dedication and a wedding and it was strange. The dedication had people crying while singing about being devoted to god. The parson spent an hour telling us all not to conform to society, we should pray and not shop was the main message. the wedding was very strange too. It was more like a funeral. The bride and groom had not even kissed before the wedding and didn't kiss at all during the day either. There was no 'you may now kiss the bride', there was no clapping or smiling. No make-up or hairspray. After the wedding there was a meal then home by 8pm. No music, no dancing, no alcohol. The bar at the venue wasn't even allowed to be open to serve soft drinks. We had to have water or schloer provided on the tables. The speeches were about god.

The people I'm talking about go to youth groups (even though they are older now), they go on christian beach holidays etc. They believe in creationism.

If my child was 11 I wouldn't want them to be alone with these people for a week. Just my opinion.

As an evangelical Christian I don't recognise the dedication or wedding you describe at all. The dedications we have are very similar to a christening other than no water and no God-parents but the vows are much the same. Certainly the sermons could well be concentrating on not conforming to society and take about 45 minutes. I doubt very much that you could tell our weddings apart from any other. They certainly say 'you may kiss the bride' and brides are dressed and made-up as others are else-where. The receptions also are like any other with music and dancing although as Christians they may well thank God in the speeches.

Brighton_belle

EvieSaver wrote: »

I'm not religious but I have family members who are born-again evangelical baptists. I have been to a baby's dedication and a wedding and it was strange. The dedication had people crying while singing about being devoted to god. The parson spent an hour telling us all not to conform to society, we should pray and not shop was the main message. the wedding was very strange too. It was more like a funeral. The bride and groom had not even kissed before the wedding and didn't kiss at all during the day either. There was no 'you may now kiss the bride', there was no clapping or smiling. No make-up or hairspray. After the wedding there was a meal then home by 8pm. No music, no dancing, no alcohol. The bar at the venue wasn't even allowed to be open to serve soft drinks. We had to have water or schloer provided on the tables. The speeches were about god.

The people I'm talking about go to youth groups (even though they are older now), they go on christian beach holidays etc. They believe in creationism.

If my child was 11 I wouldn't want them to be alone with these people for a week. Just my opinion.

This sounds very different from my experience of weddings of b.a.evangelical christians - I have experienced them as happy and celebratory. This sounds like a very small subsect who have strong views about alcohol and music/personal adornment and physical contact.

stiltwalker

We have a mixed family - DH has a Christian faith (C of E) and I am an atheist. We had the children christened as it was important to DH but I said that if he wanted to have them christened he must mean it and must take them to church but that I would also aways be honest about my lack of belief and that they would have free choice when older. I actually attend church with them as DH wouldn't be able to manage both on his own as they have disabilities - our church are fantastic in that they respect my honesty about my lack of belief and treat that with the same respect as I treat their belief - when we go up for communion DH takes communion, each child receives a blessing and the vicar says thank you to me.

This all being said I cannot see my DH being happy with either of our children wanting to attend this type of camp at such an impressionable age. Neither of us are comfortable with this type of religion for mainly the same reasons - it seems based upon coercion and/or peer pressure as much as any true belief system, DH sees this as a slightl warped way to approach what to him is a personal faith, I just think it's a bit warped. Either way it is a pressured environment which can produce non genuine responses. I have no issue with faith - in fact sometimes I think I could deal with life's challenges with more equanimity if I could truly say 'its God's will' or the like, but it isn't in me - however I do feel very strongly that faith is something which should come from within not somethin which is pushed on people.

seashore22

My children have been to christian youth camps a couple of times and seemed to have a good time. I also helped my husband run one once. Never again though! The people who organise these things deserve a medal or sainthood.

Most of the time it was completely non religious ie camp building, treasure hunts, the sort of things you might do on a scout/guide camp. There was a bit of teaching and singing in the evening, but nothing in the way of indoctrination. They came back rather filthy and smelly though as I think they took it as an opportunity not to wash. My grownup children don't go to church at now, so any brainwashing was obviously very substandard.

seashore22

Just seen your post about it being Soul Survivor. That is a very different kettle of fish from the type I mentioned above. Ours was a fairly small C of E affair, this will be more intense and much bigger. More meetings and less archery I think.

As I christian I don't think it would be the end of the world if your daughter did show an interest, but, after a few decades of being exposed to various church types, I can see the need to proceed with caution.

stsarina

I'm a Christian (C of E), I went to Soul Survivor when I was 16 - and I absolutely think you're doing the right thing by not letting your daughter go. I wouldn't let my DD go when she reached the age I was when I went, let alone only 11 years old. It was an incredibly intense experience, and though I loved the social aspect and seeing the Christian bands, the seminars were very full-on. There was one in particular about 'healing', which I found to be both upsetting and intimidating to see people claiming the spirit had entered and healed them while we watched, and the leader was (in my opinion) very aggressive in 'encouraging' us to open up and let the spirit enter us.

There's certainly a time and place for learning about religion in a balanced way, and if your daughter believes in her faith then by all means encourage it, but not like this. Stand firm on this one, OP.