Orange PAC Code confusion - still billing me-please please help!

Herongull

Don't listen to people who think that mobile companies can do whatever they like. Consumers do have rights.

If:

1/ It is not spelled our clearly in the T&Cs

and

2/ The agent you spoke to didn't spell it out

Then you have a reasonable case for disputing the amount, even if there is something buried deep in the letter that they sent you. Companies have to make these sorts of counter-intuitive "special terms and conditions" clear to customers in order for them to stick.

If you pay the "debt" now you are accepting it and it will affect your credit rating.

If you successfully dispute the debt, then you can get any negative references to your credit rating removed.

Go through the internal dispute procedure. If it is not resolved satisfactorily, get a letter of deadlock and go to the ombudsman.

Which? explains the process here
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/action/how-to-complain-to-the-ombudsman-about-a-mobile-phone-provider/?a=letter-of-deadlock-for-a-dispute-with-a-mobile-phone-provider

macman

The OP did not give notice to cancel. A PAC is not a notice to cancel, it's an option to cancel.
It's like giving someone a cheque-it only puts the money into your account if it's used by paying it in. If not, it will expire.
We all know that Orange CS is carp, but nevertheless the agent is not required to explain the workings of a PAC, which 2 minutes research on Google would have revealed.

grumbler

macman wrote: »

The OP did not give notice to cancel.

How do you know?:

doomedmuffin wrote: »

....I called with plenty of notice in August to cancel my contract. ....I know I was given a PAC code.

A PAC is not a notice to cancel, it's an option to cancel.
It's like giving someone a cheque-it only puts the money into your account if it's used by paying it in. If not, it will expire.

Thank you for explaining this.

We all know that Orange CS is carp, but nevertheless the agent is not required to explain the workings of a PAC,

They are required. That's why they normally do this, but seem to have failed this time.

which 2 minutes research on Google would have revealed.

You only do the research if

• you get paid for this,
• you have nothing to do and have plenty of spare time,
• you feel that something is unclear.

The first wasn't the case. I don't know about the second, but the last definitely was not the case either. As Herongull said, and I agree with this, the way PAC works is counter-intuitive.

macman

The OP could not have given notice to cancel and a PAC. One cancels out the other.
I would agree the the PAC system can be confusing, but that's the one that the industry is currently stuck with, and can see no failure here by Horange (who I am by the way, hardly a fan of).
How hard would it have been for the OP to say 'I've never switched before, how does a PAC work?'. They must have known something about them beforehand, or they would not have even known to ask for a PAC. If you ring and just ask to cancel, then a PAC is not involved or presumably offered?

Silk

macman wrote: »

The OP could not have given notice to cancel and a PAC.

It doesn't explain how the OP was given a disconection date in September when the OP would have been abroad ???

grumbler

macman wrote: »

One cancels out the other.

Good for you that you know this.

I would agree the the PAC system can be confusing, but that's the one that the industry is currently stuck with,

Customers normally get services from the industry, now work in the industry.

How hard would it have been for the OP to say 'I've never switched before, how does a PAC work?'. They must have known something about them beforehand, or they would not have even known to ask for a PAC.

The only common knowledge about the PAC is that it is used for porting numbers between providers. You get it from the old provider and give it the the new one. Everything else are technicalities. The important technicalities have to be explained to the customers.

Ofcom wrote:

Can I keep my mobile number if I switch provider?
Yes and you can now transfer your existing number to a new mobile company in just one working day. To transfer your number you have to contact your original provider and ask for a Porting Authorisation Code or PAC.
The PAC enables you to transfer your number to another network. The PAC must be issued to you immediately over the phone or within two hours by text message.
Your PAC is likely to be a nine digit code and is valid for 30 days.
Contact your new chosen mobile provider and give them your PAC.

Yes, you can dig dipper and find more information, but you are not supposed to.

If you ring and just ask to cancel, then a PAC is not involved or presumably offered?

Generally, this is irrelevant. However there were numerous reports that customers called to cancel and were offered a PAC "just in case".

jap200

MikeWhite wrote: »

And this is what happened to me in late 2011. Does it mean they always read that out, though?

Mike

Only a recording of the conversation would verify that, but I know that this morning I kept interrupting the spiel and the CS person kept starting again and apologised explaining that it was required text for her to read and that she had to be sure she said it all.

Again, not defending the shockingly poor CS at Orange for one moment - just stating what happened in my own case and I suspect that it is standard practice, but of course there is no guarantee that it is adhered to in every case.

If (and that is the crux) the standard speil was read out then the OP would have been told that the PAC code is valid for 30 days and that use of the code would cancel the contract, but that if it was not used by then the PAC code would expire and the contract would continue.

But - even if that didn't happen, the letter that was sent (which the OP has lost) will be the standard letter (that I have right now on my desk) which says on page 2 under the actual PAC code:

"If you decide not to use the code before the expiry date, your account will remain active and you can continue to use your phone and services with Orange as normal."

Guys_Dad

grumbler wrote: »

You only do the research if

• you get paid for this,
• you have nothing to do and have plenty of spare time,
• you feel that something is unclear.

The first wasn't the case. I don't know about the second, but the last definitely was not the case either. As Herongull said, and I agree with this, the way PAC works is counter-intuitive.

"Research" is just a fancy word for "finding out" - in this case any way.

And the thing that seems to be being overlooked in the most recent posts on this thread is that Orange sent out a letter, a version of which has been posted by jap200 - OP admits getting the letter.

So, on one hand we have an OP who can't remember the specific details of the call, didn't read the letter that came with the PAC code and on the other, we have a copy of a PAC code letter from Orange that spells out exactly what happens when you get a PAC code - the same with EVERY network, by the way.

Whilst sorry for the OP and not quite understanding why Orange goes directly to Credit Chasers without contacting customer first, OP has failed to use the PAC code system correctly and Orange, for me, are in the clear.

grumbler

"Research" or "finding out" - this makes no difference.
Re the letter I agreed about this in my post #9, even before jap200's post.
After this I have been merely arguing with our local extremest typically insisting that everything was up to the customer and Orange didn't have to explain anything either on the phone or in the letter.

Guys_Dad

grumbler wrote: »

"Research" or "finding out" - this makes no difference.
Re the letter I agreed about this in my post #9, even before jap200's post.
After this I have been merely arguing with our local extremest typically insisting that everything was up to the customer and Orange didn't have to explain anything either on the phone or in the letter.

OK. Then a simple question - a bit like the facts of life - how did you personally find out how PAC codes work? (Please don't ask me - about either - at my age memory gone!!!)