Orange PAC Code confusion - still billing me-please please help!

doomedmuffin

I really need some good advice regarding Orange.

I had been with Orange for at least the last 8 years and had never cancelled a mobile phone contract until recently, so I was unfamiliar with PAC codes.

My contract ended in September so I called with plenty of notice in August to cancel my contract. I had a conversation with an agent, although some time has passed and I can't remember specific details of the call, I know I was given a PAC code. I MAY have been told I need to use it within 30 days but I absolutely was not told what would happen if I did not.

It may sound naive, but as I have never changed mobile phone companies, I knew nothing about the consequences of not using it - I would have presumed (if it was even mentioned it had to be used in 30 days) that it simply meant I wouldn't be able to keep my number if I didn't use it.

At no point in the phone call was I made aware that I would continue to be charged if I did not use this number.

As far as I was concerned, I had called, told them my wish to leave as I was going to another network and when I was told my phone would work until a certain date in September and then be disconnected- i specifically remember saying that was fine as I was going abroad and wouldn't use my phone anyway.

I then paid my last direct debit in September and then cancelled it.

I did receive a letter with my PAC code (which I now can't find) I can't remember the details of this letter and to be completely truthful I probably didn't read it as I knew it was arriving after my conversation with the agent where she had already given me the code and to me confirmed the end of my contract (again, she mentioned nothing about having to actually use the code on the phone)

I signed up for my new phone and as I didn't give my PAC code at a certain point, they could no longer accept it and I had to use a different number- clearly i would have kept the same number I had had for 8 years if i could have

Then, 4 months later I receive a letter from a debt agency, having never owed anything to anyone, I called panicked and was reduced to tears by the rude, obnoxious a******e at Buchanan, Clark and Wells who told me I owe Orange £88.

I absolutely, categorically never received one single letter from Orange after I cancelled my direct debit- nothing (except the PAC code letter that arrived before I cancelled my DD) surely it is not legal to send someone to a debt agency when they do not know they have a debt????

I called Orange immediately and spoke to another rude boy who told me 'to be candid I cant help you- you need to dispute it with the debt agency'

I was and am beyond furious - I never used my phone from 1st September onwards, it has been sat in my draw- i tried to explain the above to him but he was not interested and had a accusing tone to his voice as if I was just lying.

I emailed orange my complaint-just to have an automated response telling me their email service is not working.

i have now emailed 'orange helpers' on face book (their own help page) and have snidely been told by someone about the technicality of PAC codes.

They have not listened to my call yet, but surely they should have tried to make contact with me (they have my address!) and can't just send me to a debt agency when i knew NOTHING about this supposed debt?

I never used my phone in this time so surely i can claim ignorance if nothing else (which is true anyway) and the fact that i never used my phone from Sept onwards?

Also, they cancelled my contract in December - i never contacted them as I knew nothing about this mess until the weekend - so if it continues to be a rolling contract, why would they have cancelled it?

I really strongly feel that I do not owe this money and that this is their faulty entirely- i was not informed about the PAC code and why I had to use it.

I now no doubt have a mark on my credit rating, when i was completely clueless to all of this.

I would really really appreciate some helpful advice-I don't need smug comments like I should have known- because I genuinely didn't and was not told this over the phone and this is really getting me down.

lastly, as Im dealing with this through their face book page-would this be regulated like their emails would be by their ombudsman? i.e it would be an official complaint and go against their 'rating' as such? so that if i ended up going to their ombudsman my complaint to them on their facebook page would still count as such?

Pleaseeee help!

oopsadaisydoddle

doomedmuffin wrote: »

I really need some good advice regarding Orange.

I had been with Orange for at least the last 8 years and had never cancelled a mobile phone contract until recently, so I was unfamiliar with PAC codes.

My contract ended in September so I called with plenty of notice in August to cancel my contract. I had a conversation with an agent, although some time has passed and I can't remember specific details of the call, I know I was given a PAC code. I MAY have been told I need to use it within 30 days but I absolutely was not told what would happen if I did not.

It may sound naive, but as I have never changed mobile phone companies, I knew nothing about the consequences of not using it - I would have presumed (if it was even mentioned it had to be used in 30 days) that it simply meant I wouldn't be able to keep my number if I didn't use it.

At no point in the phone call was I made aware that I would continue to be charged if I did not use this number.

As far as I was concerned, I had called, told them my wish to leave as I was going to another network and when I was told my phone would work until a certain date in September and then be disconnected- i specifically remember saying that was fine as I was going abroad and wouldn't use my phone anyway.

I then paid my last direct debit in September and then cancelled it.

I did receive a letter with my PAC code (which I now can't find) I can't remember the details of this letter and to be completely truthful I probably didn't read it as I knew it was arriving after my conversation with the agent where she had already given me the code and to me confirmed the end of my contract (again, she mentioned nothing about having to actually use the code on the phone)

I signed up for my new phone and as I didn't give my PAC code at a certain point, they could no longer accept it and I had to use a different number- clearly i would have kept the same number I had had for 8 years if i could have

Then, 4 months later I receive a letter from a debt agency, having never owed anything to anyone, I called panicked and was reduced to tears by the rude, obnoxious a******e at Buchanan, Clark and Wells who told me I owe Orange £88.

I absolutely, categorically never received one single letter from Orange after I cancelled my direct debit- nothing (except the PAC code letter that arrived before I cancelled my DD) surely it is not legal to send someone to a debt agency when they do not know they have a debt????

I called Orange immediately and spoke to another rude boy who told me 'to be candid I cant help you- you need to dispute it with the debt agency'

I was and am beyond furious - I never used my phone from 1st September onwards, it has been sat in my draw- i tried to explain the above to him but he was not interested and had a accusing tone to his voice as if I was just lying.

I emailed orange my complaint-just to have an automated response telling me their email service is not working.

i have now emailed 'orange helpers' on face book (their own help page) and have snidely been told by someone about the technicality of PAC codes.

They have not listened to my call yet, but surely they should have tried to make contact with me (they have my address!) and can't just send me to a debt agency when i knew NOTHING about this supposed debt?

I never used my phone in this time so surely i can claim ignorance if nothing else (which is true anyway) and the fact that i never used my phone from Sept onwards?

Also, they cancelled my contract in December - i never contacted them as I knew nothing about this mess until the weekend - so if it continues to be a rolling contract, why would they have cancelled it?

I really strongly feel that I do not owe this money and that this is their faulty entirely- i was not informed about the PAC code and why I had to use it.

I now no doubt have a mark on my credit rating, when i was completely clueless to all of this.

I would really really appreciate some helpful advice-I don't need smug comments like I should have known- because I genuinely didn't and was not told this over the phone and this is really getting me down.

lastly, as Im dealing with this through their face book page-would this be regulated like their emails would be by their ombudsman? i.e it would be an official complaint and go against their 'rating' as such? so that if i ended up going to their ombudsman my complaint to them on their facebook page would still count as such?

Pleaseeee help!

The reason they will have cancelled your contract in December due to 'non payment'. If the account is with a DCA, then Orange's 'normal' customer service people won't touch it.

You'd be best contacting their Executive Office (someone should have a contact for them). They will be able to look at it.

jbainbridge

The PAC is to allow you to move your number - requesting it does not end your contract. If you had used the PAC within 30 days - then Orange would have ended your contract.

Guys_Dad

You asked for a PAC code without researching its use properly. Your mistake.

In this case, Orange are in the clear.

macman

A PAC is simply an 'option to cancel'. if you don't use it , it expires and your contract continues, so Orange have acted perfectly correctly. It's not their job to explain how a PAC works, and you didn't ask or investigate.
'Not using the phone' is completely irrelevant-you still pay your monthly rental whether you use it or not.

grumbler

Guys_Dad wrote: »

You asked for a PAC code without researching its use properly. Your mistake.

In this case, Orange are in the clear.

Customers are not researches and they are supposed to follow the T&C, not to do a research. The OP did follow the T&C and did give a notice to cancel. The fact that getting a PAC voids the notice is not explained in the T&C and hence had to be explained clearly by the agent that obviously failed to do this. I think that the OP has good grounds to complain to Orange, then to the ombudsman.

doomedmuffin wrote: »

....I called with plenty of notice in August to cancel my contract. I had a conversation with an agent, although some time has passed and I can't remember specific details of the call, I know I was given a PAC code. I MAY have been told I need to use it within 30 days but I absolutely was not told what would happen if I did not.

macman wrote: »

...It's not their job to explain how a PAC works, and you didn't ask or investigate.

It is their job to explain if it isn't a common knowledge and if they failed to do this in the T&C and the tariffs that are the documents regulating their relationships with customers.

BTW, at least two times I ported my number from Orange and I have never received letters with PAC from them. It always was a text message.

Techhead_2

You won't be able to go to the Ombudsman based on a phone call you can't recall and a letter you didn't read.

Or for that matter on not understanding how PAC and contract cancellations work. I sympathise with you; however it really is a case of making assumptions.

Guys_Dad

grumbler wrote: »

Customers are not researches and they are supposed to follow the T&C, not to do a research. The OP did follow the T&C and did give a notice to cancel. The fact that getting a PAC voids the notice is not explained in the T&C and hence had to be explained clearly by the agent that obviously failed to do this. I think that the OP has good grounds to complain to Orange, than to the ombudsman.

It is their job to explain if it isn't a common knowledge and if they failed to do this in the T&C and the tariffs that are the documents regulating their relationships with customers.

Wonder what the missing letter said? Usually explain what the procedure is.

Also, see http://ask.ofcom.org.uk/help/telephone/changing_mobile_provider The wording here indicates that if you don`t use the PAC. Code your contract rolls on.

In any event, 99℅ of mobile users would ask how a PAC code worked if they didn't know.

grumbler

OK, I stand corrected about the letter.
I checked my folder and I did receive it the last time I ported my number out: "It's not too late to change your mind".
The first page is a pile of usual meaningless nonsense, but on the second page it does say: "If you decide not to use the code... your account remains active...".

I have to admit that formally Orange have done what they were supposed to do, but they have done their best to bury the very important information at the bottom of the pile of rubbish.

jap200

I can help with the wording of the letter as I have one in front of my that is probably identical.

The letter starts by giving you reasons not to leave Orange. It then has this paragraph:

"If you still want to leave us, your PAC (Porting Authority Code) is on page 2. A PAC is valid for the next 30 days. If you leave before the end of your contract you will be charged for the remaining months on your final bill."

There is then another paragraph about plans that are billed in advance followed by this paragraph:

"If you decide not to leave Orange, then you don't need to do a thing. Your account will remain active and you can use your phone and Orange services as normal. We hope that is what you'll decide after giving us a call."

I am attempting to leave Orange because of their shocking customer service, poor coverage in my area and unreasonable charges for using voicemail. I have just had to request a second PAC code as the first one expired before I could use it as I am STILL waiting for the handset unlocking code that should have been sent to me within 20 days - that was over a month ago. I can't use the PAC code until after I have unlocked the handset as they can only issue an unlock code for a handset that is still on the network (apparently - or maybe this is a load of baloney).

Anyway, in summary, I can confirm that on the phone this morning (3rd attempt to get through over the last couple of days and a total of 1 hour on hold!) I was given a new PAC code and had to listen while the person read the standard wording relating to things written in the paragraph above. I had to then confirm that I understood and those terms. It was made very clear to me that the contract would remain in place if I did not use the PAC code. Whilst there are many, many things wrong with Orange, I have no doubt that doomedmuffin would have had to listen to the same standard text on the phone and received the same standard letter.

MikeWhite

jap200 wrote: »

I was given a new PAC code and had to listen while the person read the standard wording relating to things written in the paragraph above. I had to then confirm that I understood and those terms. It was made very clear to me that the contract would remain in place if I did not use the PAC code..

And this is what happened to me in late 2011. Does it mean they always read that out, though?

Mike