Safe in our Hands

Generali

I've gotta be honest grizzly1911 old fruit, this really doesn't sound like a few bad apples, it's sounds like systematic neglect and abuse.

Doctors and nurses woul have seen exactly what was going on and were complicit with it. There is no excuse.

chewmylegoff

To be fair to the NHS, the reason it has some rubbish staff is that they are drawn from the general population. It is not fault of the NHS that some people are a bunch of &£@:s and, like MPs, the NHS reflects the population it serves. I don't really see the problem as the staff, at least not on the front line, shocking as some of them may be (what organisation doesn't harbour incompetent/nasty/lazy/useless employees? Why would the NHS be any different), rather the lack of a clear vision of what the NHS is supposed to be and a competent leadership to take it there.

Generali

chewmylegoff wrote: »

To be fair to the NHS, the reason it has some rubbish staff is that they are drawn from the general population. It is not fault of the NHS that some people are a bunch of &£@:s and, like MPs, the NHS reflects the population it serves. I don't really see the problem as the staff, at least not on the front line, shocking as some of them may be (what organisation doesn't harbour incompetent/nasty/lazy/useless employees? Why would the NHS be any different), rather the lack of a clear vision of what the NHS is supposed to be and a competent leadership to take it there.

The difference is that if I treat my customers with indifference, hostility or even, as was clearly the case here, malice and malign neglect I get the sack. If I do a job so badly that people die, I can expect to face a very heavy fine and a possible gaol sentence.

In the NHS, you can kill a hundred people because you're too lazy to manage cleaning staff properly (link) and keep your job. Yes there is a fine but it's just money being moved around pots in Government, there is no genuine penalty for a catastrophic failure.

TBH I suspect that part of the reason that nothing has been done for the past decade or so is that Unite and Unison are so massively powerful in the Labour party that no Labour Government can take them on. In the first quarter of 2012 (link) they gave almost £1,500,000 to Labour between them, over 40% of Labour's income for the period.

It stinks and I find it utterly amazing that the reaction appears to be somewhere between indifference and excusing this. Jeremy Hunt has the right idea:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/09/jeremy-hunt-mid-staffs-deaths-investigation

"I think it's absolutely outrageous that potentially more than 1,000 people lost their lives because of poor care and not a single person has been brought to book," he said.


"This was a public inquiry that was designed to help us understand why the system didn't pick up what went wrong but I think it is absolutely disgraceful with all those things happening, whether it is doctors, nurses or managers, nobody has been held to account."


Asked whether the information should be passed to the police, he added: "Well that evidence is in the public domain. And you know, it's there for the police – and it's there for the professional bodies, the GMC (General Medical Council) and the NMC (Nursing and Midwifery Council) to look at and they should do that."

People who kill people should go to prison and Labour shouldn't cover up for these people just because they are a member of a trade union that pays for the party. As far as I know, the unanswered question is how did this go on for so long without being discovered? Where's the scrutiny?

PaulF81

Generali wrote: »

I've gotta be honest grizzly1911 old fruit, this really doesn't sound like a few bad apples, it's sounds like systematic neglect and abuse.

Doctors and nurses woul have seen exactly what was going on and were complicit with it. There is no excuse.

To be fair, I would expect there was a blame culture going on gen, combined with a "we don't air our dirty laundry in public mentality" that made whistle blowing nigh on impossible.

I bet one or two brave souls did though and were ignored.

grizzly1911

Generali wrote: »

I've gotta be honest grizzly1911 old fruit, this really doesn't sound like a few bad apples, it's sounds like systematic neglect and abuse.

Doctors and nurses woul have seen exactly what was going on and were complicit with it. There is no excuse.

I don't dispute that in in isolated trusts there has been bad practice my point is this is not true for the whole NHS. Yes they should be disciplined, within reason and where it can be proven then criminal charges should be brought. In my mind that should start with some Senior Management heads.

1.4 million people are employed by the NHS across 100s of locations.

• 1,431,557: Total number of NHS employees in England:
• 41,962 managers and senior managers
• 721,717 professionally qualified clinical staff, including:
• 39,409 GPs
• 37,752 consultants
• 410,615 qualified nurses

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12819538



The professionals themselves do raise issues and problems but whistle blowing could easily lose your career and "management" will choose whether they act on information.

There was already cause for concern when in 2007 the Board decided to apply for Foundation Trust status (in other words, to make a bid for financial independence). In 2007 an inpatient survey identified several areas where the Trust was among the worst performing 20% in the country. In the same year, the surgical department of Mid Staffordshire hospital had been described as "dysfunctional" by the Royal College of Surgeons.
But, as Mr Francis notes, the board failed to consider that the cost-cutting involved in earning Foundation Trust status might be to the detriment of patient care:

"Savings in staff costs were being made in an organisation which was already identified as having serious problems in delivering a service of adequate quality, and complying with minimum standards. Yet no thought seems to have been given in any part of the system aware of the proposals to the potential impact on patient safety and quality."

Mr Francis points out that although any hospital seeking Foundation Trust status is required to undergo a rigorous assessment process, none of the deficiencies at Mid Staffs were uncovered. While both the Conservative and Labour parties have backed the idea of hospitals becoming autonomous entities, Mr Francis suggests that the Mid Staffs oversight calls into question the effectiveness of the whole regulatory system....

In his response to the Francis report, David Cameron said that the Government intends to make it possible for a hospital's board to be dismissed when there are failures of care. At the moment, a board is only accountable for any financial failure. He also suggested that nurses' pay might be linked to the quality of care they provide, rather than the duration of their employment....

In his first report, Mr Francis proclaimed, "If there is one lesson to be learnt, I suggest it is that people must always come before numbers." Perhaps, Mr Francis is here making a reference to cost concerns


http://fullfact.org/factchecks/NHS_Francis_report_Mid_Staffordshire-28751




Wards Dangerously understaffed. Anew report but a consistent message for a long time.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21310735

Generali

grizzly1911 wrote: »

In my mind that should start with some Senior Management heads.

I agree. Senior management can't be responsible for every action of every staff member but a catastrophic failure like this should not have gone unnoticed. From what I have seen from over here it is starting to look like this wasn't an isolated incident either. I read something that implied that another 10 trusts possibly had similar problems.

Nicholson should go although to hold him criminally responsible is possibly unreasonable. I honestly don't know enough to say whether that is correct or not.

People like Janice Harry and Martin Yeates should be sweating on a police investigation IMHO.

Not enough staff doesn't excuse what happened here. It was systematic abuse that led to hundreds of deaths.

MacMickster

A couple of years ago my father-in-law, who has since passed away, was admitted to hospital and we were appalled by the lack of cleanliness and basic nursing care in the ward that he was admitted to. Soiled pyjamas were left lying on the floor next to his bed. Bloodstaines sheets remained on the bed. He had a fall trying to get to the toilet alone as no nurses came when he rang for assistance. Needless to say a complaint was made.

He was released from hospital, but readmitted some weeks later, to a different ward within the same hospital. The care that all the patients on that ward received couldn't have been more different.We never saw a nurse sitting or standing still. They were happy to talk to us about our father-in-law, but if the ward sister came into sight they would make their excuses immediately and get on with their work.

To our minds, the difference between the two wards was the expectations of standards between the people charged with running them.

grizzly1911

Generali wrote: »

The difference is that if I treat my customers with indifference, hostility or even, as was clearly the case here, malice and malign neglect I get the sack. If I do a job so badly that people die, I can expect to face a very heavy fine and a possible gaol sentence.

In the NHS, you can kill a hundred people because you're too lazy to manage cleaning staff properly (link) and keep your job. Yes there is a fine but it's just money being moved around pots in Government, there is no genuine penalty for a catastrophic failure.

QUOTE]

If health care professionals are found guilty of misconduct they will be disciplined and can be struck off in just the same manner. If criminal charges are proven they will be dealt with including prison.

From the link you post there is lots of information we don't know.

- The number of clean cases, total number of patients treated.

- The number of cases that could be tolerated or seen as acceptable. Hospitals are full of sick people.

Some will be immobile. I would be surprised if they don't soil their beds, trolleys, wheelchairs etc. How quickly that is responded to and how easy it is to deep clean each time that happens I don't know.

- How many cases were brought into the hospital with the patient , visitors, non health care staff.

- Whilst Cdif is viewed as contributory cause how many would have succumbed anyway. The illness that brings them in hospital in the first place being the real cause.

Generali wrote: »

TBH I suspect that part of the reason that nothing has been done for the past decade or so is that Unite and Unison are so massively powerful in the Labour party that no Labour Government can take them on. In the first quarter of 2012 (link) they gave almost £1,500,000 to Labour between them, over 40% of Labour's income for the period.

Perhaps that is the same with the City.

Our trawl of 450 separate donations given to Conservative Central Office by individuals, companies and limited liability partnerships reveals that 27%, or £3.3m, of the £12.18m donated to the party came from hedge funds, financiers and private equity firms.

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2011/09/30/hedge-funds-financiers-and-private-equity-tycoons-make-up-27-of-tory-funding/

Generali wrote: »

It stinks and I find it utterly amazing that the reaction appears to be somewhere between indifference and excusing this. Jeremy Hunt has the right idea:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/09/jeremy-hunt-mid-staffs-deaths-investigation



People who kill people should go to prison and Labour shouldn't cover up for these people just because they are a member of a trade union that pays for the party. As far as I know, the unanswered question is how did this go on for so long without being discovered? Where's the scrutiny?

Labour introduced the mortality rate test in 2000 (Alan Johnson - This Week BBC) so I would be surprised if they covered it up deliberately.

From the first report
http://www.midstaffspublicinquiry.com/sites/default/files/First_Inquiry_report_volume_1_0.pdf

Statistics start at pp351 of report (not PDF)

Point 36 pp363 of report

[FONT=&quot]It is unfortunate that the figure of 400−1,200 excess deaths became so widely [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]publicised and sensationalized. These estimates are derived from 95% confidence [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]intervals around the SMRs, and the intention was to redact them from the final [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]report because of concerns that the public would not understand them. Perhaps [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a more thorough public educational effort describing the interpretation and [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]limitations of these calculations would have mitigated some of the sensationalism [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]that was subsequently observed. [/FONT]

Killers do go to prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman

My old man used to say doctors bury their mistakes – even the good ones.

Of course the Minister is right to call for justice.

If the evidence shows that 1000 died due to lack of care I am sure there will be justifiable convictions. No doubt that will be somewhat of a mine field. How many would have died as a result of their underlying reason for being in hospital? How many actually drank out of flower vases something Mr Cameron chose to highlight in a press conference?


Having recently attended an elderly relative in hospital there were many on the ward that didn’t even know what day it was, where they were or what they were watching on non-existent TV. It was saddening – even more so that either there was no family or they couldn’t get there to visit for whatever reason. The nurses were regularly being diverted to help with false alarms. The ward was clean, nursing staff were attentive and available to ask questions.

grizzly1911

Generali wrote: »

From what I have seen from over here it is starting to look like this wasn't an isolated incident either. I read something that implied that another 10 trusts possibly had similar problems.

NHS's darkest day: Five more hospitals under investigation for neglect



http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhss-darkest-day-five-more-hospitals-under-investigation-for-neglect-as-report-blames-failings-at-every-level-for-1200-deaths-at-stafford-hospital-8482566.html


Interestingly;-

http://www.midstaffspublicinquiry.com/sites/default/files/First_Inquiry_report_volume_1_0.pdf

s21 pp358

The HCC calculated that the statistical likelihood of a trust generating this number of alerts in the period of one year was “extremely low”



Death rates falling in Britain

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-197598/Death-rates-falling-Britain.html#axzz2KPvPIBav


Britain is no longer the "sick man" of Europe, according to new health statistics released today.
Mortality rates among the four biggest killer diseases - coronary heart disease, stroke, breast cancer and lung cancer - are falling dramatically compared with our European and American counterparts, figures show.

StevieJ

Thrugelmir wrote: »

My partner is a senior NHS manager. New Years Eve was extremely busy in her speciality.

Just out of interest is your partner administrative or clinical just so the I can understand the terminology