Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

Richie-from-the-Boro

CJL wrote: »

In a few years time, this will be a future mis-selling scandal. There will be a mis-selling claim back guide from MSE.

The basic principle appears to be that it won't cost you anything as the interest and repayments will be covered by the energy savings. Those energy savings will be calculated by the Green Deal assessor. He/she is either employed by someone wanting to sell the improvements to you or is independent, but wanting you to feel that the money you pay him for the assessment was worthwhile. Either way, the savings are likely to be over-estimated, thus meaning that the interest and repayments won't be covered by the savings. That will come as a surprise to some householders.

The consequences of the loan being linked to the energy bill of the property will also mean that lenders for a later purchaser of the property and/or the later purchaser themselves are certain to want the loan repaid in full by the seller before purchasing the property. And although tenants will be supposed to get permission from their landlords, you can guarantee that there will be cases where they don't and a landlord has to argue about who is to pay for the loan to cover improvements that the landlord either didn't want or could have completed much more cost-effectively.

"""In a few years time, this will be a future mis-selling scandal. There will be a mis-selling claim back guide from MSE."""

- prophetic, and a real time event, the Paul Daniels free insulation pulling very expensive thermal rabbits out of hats
- happening as we speak .. .. each hour of each day to the unwary, old and cold

Richie-from-the-Boro

NOTE :

Two 'vested interest' self promoters have had their accounts & thread [#] deleted in the last 18 hours.

Ecodave

Gloucester_Lad wrote: »

Blanik said
"We have a 3yo condensing boiler, with trv on all radiators and programmable room stat - but it still suggested I would save £200 ( which is 40% of my gas bill ) by fitting a new boiler! and £20 by changing the controls"

Well, I'm not surprised you were unimpressed by the assessment. I'm an experienced EPC assessor (not a GDAdvisor) and clearly your GDA got it badly wrong. He (or she) failed to correctly identify your heating and heating control system making the assessment a complete nonsense.

The reason could be put down to the GDA simply not being very good or it could be that the motive was to sell you a new heating system and collect commission on that sale.

Remember all GDA's are newly qualified. Some will be experienced EPC assessors, but many will be ex sales people looking to benefit from this new sales opportunity, and who see qualifying as a GDA just a necessary step.

This is why I, as an existing EPC assessor who simply provides EPC's and sells nothing, have no plans to qualify as a GDA. I prefer to remain independent and not forced to double as a sales person.

This issue is perhaps towards the top of my list of concerns about the Green Deal. I believe that without total independence, and that means no sales commission or no sale no fee arrangement, the whole scheme is open to mis-selling potential and no amount of checks and measures can really prevent this.

I think Blanik completed an online tool for assessing himself, don't think he has actually dealt with a GDA or DEA.

Ecodave

baldchris wrote: »

Is it even worth booking an assessor, as we are renovating an old, solid stone wall home. It doesn't have any heating at all at the minute (let alone a full set of windows!).
So, if the loan depends upon the savings you make on your heating, then as I'm only paying a notional £10 month for gas, I can't see how I can save on that - so is it even worth calling an assessor?
I want to install internal solid wall insulation and double glazing, and our funds have almost run dry, so this deal would suit me if I am eligible.

Thanks for any advice...

Hi Baldchris,


ECO support is available to help meet the cost of solid wall insulation, so it would probably be worth calling the energy savings advice service to get clarification on how it will work when you have no heating system in place. I think the number for this service is included in the main report.

jamesd

The Green Deal Oversight and Registration Body has a search for registered assessors, providers and installers, all of whom must be authorised by it before they will appear in its search results for approved firms.

jamesd

baldchris wrote: »

Is it even worth booking an assessor, as we are renovating an old, solid stone wall home. It doesn't have any heating at all at the minute (let alone a full set of windows!).

Portable electric heating is what has been assumed in that case on past energy certificates. And that's expensive enough to justify a lot of work.

baldchris wrote: »

I want to install internal solid wall insulation and double glazing, and our funds have almost run dry, so this deal would suit me if I am eligible.

You should be fine but why not phone the Energy Saving Trust helpline and ask them any questions you have? I've found them to be helpful.

UseLessEnergy

compact101 wrote: »

Sorry if this has been answered (1 large thread is a little strange for a topic that would generate so many differing questions).
I'm interested in the scheme mainly for the cashback.

1) I've started work on the house, would this invalidate things i.e. old boiler in basement gone, but new boiler not bought or installed
2) Do you have to use their workmen i.e. plumbers or can you do it yourself
3) If you have just bought the property so have no bills can you still do an assesment?
i.e. no insulation, single glazing, 20yr old boiler all need to be upgraded.

Ideally I would like an independent assessment
Use independent workmen
Pay for all the work upfront
Claim the cashback.

I'm waiting for a call back from an assessor, but in lieu of this, I'd be interested to hear from people with knowledge of the system.

Thanks

You'd need a Green Deal Assessment (independent is fine but they all do the same thing to be honest)
You would need to use a Green Deal approved Installer if you wanted to claim cashback
You can pay for the work upfront and claim cashback

I don't think your boiler removal situation would be a problem in the process

Ken68

jay.driscoll wrote: »

Good Afternoon,

Has anyone looked at booking an assessment? If so the cost seems quite high. Has anyone come across any providers offering free no catch assessments?

Regards

Jay

Could try these people Jay...http://www.aranservices.co.uk/pages/606/The-Green-Deal/

Guard63

I have been involved with the heating industry for some 40 years . I am a small ethical company who gets all the work on recommendation. We do not do hard sell. We got involved with the renewable sector 5 years ago and the government screwed that up and still are. We are considering going for green deal installers but even as a company that knows what should be happening we are alarmed about the lack of information available to us let alone the poor old consumer. This is the government remember.
There are still issues around the major power companies taking all the work as they have a ready made and captive market in place which they can bombard you with advertising and tempting offers.
The main problem with Green deal will come when you sell your house with what is in effect a debt on your house. You will have no control over who carries out the work for you apart from those who are registered. The whole process for small people like me is so complicated that the red tape is likely to put off gas safe enginners going in to green deal. To give some idea at launch in January there were 37 installers approved to install boilers. Says it all really. I would like to also point out that I have read MSE breakdown of costs for the installation of a boiler. I beleive that this may be flawed as the loan is over 20 years. A new condensing boiler will only give you good service for 10 years and that is the amount of time that the loan should be for as far as the Golden rule is applied.

nigel9000

Hello :j
Let’s assume a householder needs all these energy saving products and services. So not including any tariff incentives etc and assuming existing property was heated by oil.

Example 1.

Cost Savings
Solid Wall Insulation 3 bed semi £12500 £475 From EST. per year
Loft Insulation 170mm top up £350 £25 From EST. per year
Solar PV Panels 16KW £12000 £88 Money saved on bill EST
£77 Money on grid export EST

Total Cost: £24850 £665 A YEAR

If interest rate is 7.67% over 25 years the householder will have to pay back

That is:

Monthly: £183
Total Interest Paid £29821
Total pay back £54671

So the householder would gain £665 a year (£55.42 month) at present bill rate per year but have to pay £183 per month at interest rate 7.67%

This would not fit under golden rule and could not be financed under green deal. Unless the householder was allowed to contribute money towards the cost or the interest rate was dropped or cost of equipment was lower.

Example 2:

Same size house gas and with out Solid Wall Insulation but has cavity walls filled.

Cost Savings
Loft Insulation 170mm top up £350 £25 From EST. per year
Solar PV Panels 16KW £12000 £88 Money saved on bill EST
£77 Money on grid export EST

Total Cost: £12350 £190 A YEAR

If interest rate is 7.67% over 25 years the householder will have to pay back

That is:

Monthly: £91
Total Interest Paid £14821
Total pay back £27171

So the householder would gain £190 a year (£15.83 month) at present bill rate per year but have to pay £91 per month at interest rate 7.67%

This would not fit under golden rule and could not be financed under green deal. Unless the householder was allowed to contribute money towards the cost or the interest rate was dropped or cost of equipment was lower.

Key Facts from Bank of England

Current Bank Rate
0.5%
View decisions and minutes
Next due:
7 Feb 2013
Quantitative Easing Asset Purchase Programme
£375 bn
More information
Next due:
7 Feb 2013
Current Inflation
2.7%

Next due:
12 Feb 2013
Inflation Target
2.0%



The interest rate from building societies for your savings of £12 000 is 2% to 2.5%. So you could assume that the lending rate for the green deal loan could be brought down to a lower figure if it was truly non profit making.

Would be glad to see someone’s realist equations that do work.


Thank you


Nigel :beer: