Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

John_Pierpoint

paulmapp8306 wrote: »

Its all strange.

As for quotes, when looking for a boiler, I had 3 quotes from "Green Deal" authorise companies, all over £3k (British Gas being the most expensive). I had 3 local independents quote for the same boiler/work and all were under £1800. Interest on the DG would be 7%, and I could get a bank loan for less.

I had the loft and cavity done for free, as are the panels (though I dont get the FITs - I do save on my electric bill - more than I though I would). I paid for LED lights throughout - which cost me £200 but wernt available on GD even if I wanted them. I paid for the windows (cut price from a local supplier), appliances (when I had a new kitchen) and boiler (ditto).

I agree in THEORY, Green Deal should be good - BUT, the problem is the use of authorised installers - all of which (at least that I know of) are currently main installers - and overly expensive. Add the interest rate which puts off anyone who has capital OR who can get independent finance, AND the charge for the initial assessment which may put off those with little money.

What SHOULD happen, is the government should use the money its going to have to pay in fines (if we fail to meet our targets) and/or some of the "green" tax money (from petrol sales etc) and provide FREE surveys, Interest free loans (or at least at base rates), paid back from the savings made, and the ability to use any supplier/installer that are registered with their trade body (ie Gas Safe Registered).

That way - theres no negatives for having an assessment, there a huge incentive to get the work done (ie no interest to pay on money borrowed, and no extra outgoings as its paid from the savings), and lower overall costs (due to greater choice of installers. This last part also means people will see bills reduce sooner - because there is less money to pay back (currently wheres the incentive? what you save on bills goes out in payments for the install for a long time).

The whole GD just strikes me as the government wanting to appear to be supporting green/energy saving works - without really being committed to them. The whole thing could be more appealing to the user, with more incentives, cheaper and easier.

I got the cavities and the loft lagged for free (the latter was a bit dodgy as I had put in much more than the then standard back in 1972).

£10k put 3.6 kWp of solar PV panels on the roof 14 months ago; I first had to reinforce the roof, but it was a no brainier and I could have installed the panels myself.

The majority of the house has already been encased by walls built in the 1970s and 1980s of "Durox" blocks (light weight concrete with bubbles like Aero chocolate).

£1000 has replaced my single glazed panes with infra red reflecting sealed units in the existing wooden casement window frames, which are now air tight.
That is a "U" value of 2.7 given a 6mm air gap, which does not meet the regulations, though it is a big improvement over the 5.0 of single glazing
I an trying to think of a low cost way of adding insulated shuttering for the winter nights (17:00 thru 08:00). During the day time my largely southerly angled windows will be "U positive", especially when the sun shines.

I would like to replace my mixture of economy 7 night storage and solid fuel stove with a ground source heat pump and a log burner. Hopefully putting in underfloor heating and floor insulation ant the same time.

paulmapp8306

Ecodave wrote: »

Quote:I agree in THEORY, Green Deal should be good - BUT, the problem is the use of authorised installers - all of which (at least that I know of) are currently main installers - and overly expensive.

There are 965 installers registered as authorised to work under the Green Deal scheme. Are all of these 'main installers' and 'overly expensive' ? Are you really telling us that you have contacted most (or even some) of them to get quotes?

You state that you have quotes from 'green deal authorised companies' but stop short from actually stating that these were quotes directly through the Green Deal process, could you clarify whether or not this is the case? If you say it is the case, could you tell me who your assessment was conducted by, who were the Provider organisations that quoted for your work, what rates of interest were they willing to charge you, did they all conduct credit checks on you, how long did it take from assessment to receiving quotes?

I have lots more questions about the process, but I will leave at these for now.

Actually this shows even more with GD. I wasnt aware there were so many inistallers no. However I did what most would do I guess - I did some searches for Green Deal on the internet, I read the terms/conditions/process and got names/contacts of companies offering installs under green deal. I contacted a few - and 3 came to visit. I had quotes from thoses installers, who told me If I wanted the work done under green deal, and advisor would come round and do that - at the cost of £100, and once the work was authorised they would then carry it out under GD.

This may not be the best approach, nor give the best value - HOWEVER, the information on GD out there is minimal. I am VERY good at research and comparisons. I used the information at hand from several days reserching - which has led me to my conclusions.

Now - Joe Bloggs isnt going to spend the amount of time I have and will consequently have even less of a clue.

IF - and its a bif IF - GD gets properly advertised - with a CENTRAL hub where you can get your assessments booked (not individual companies), and after that assessment (which should be free) a list of works that "can" be carried out is given - along with a list of authorised installers in the area - then GD may become easier/more affordable.

It wouldnt mean anything up front - which WILL put many off - and give people who are interested a list of all the available options, and then the usual costing/comparisons cant be carried out.

Im not bashing the idea of GD - just the way its being implemented and the lack of information/installers (at least advertised installers), and the fact there is quite a heft cost up front (for many) with no definite's provided at that point.

Me_fishy_u_chippie

Howee, Good day to you!

You said,

"GD is aimed at folk with poor insulation/heating who may have credit issues".[/QUOTE]

How can it be right therefore, to load them up with debt at usury rates of interest? Isn't the point that a government initiative should alleviate not exacerbate there financial position I.E. help them out, not help them into debt, which as they already have credit issues they clearly cannot deal with presently, much less so in the future!

x

sheffield_lad

Me_fishy_u_chippie wrote: »

Howee, Good day to you!

You said,

"GD is aimed at folk with poor insulation/heating who may have credit issues".

How can it be right therefore, to load them up with debt at usury rates of interest? Isn't the point that a government initiative should alleviate not exacerbate there financial position I.E. help them out, not help them into debt, which as they already have credit issues they clearly cannot deal with presently, much less so in the future!

[/QUOTE]

Err nope your not getting this GD are you lol, once again where are these 'usury rates of interest'? I read 7% ish so the price of a car loan. Next bit about loading up debt, the idea is they pay less overall via their electric bills. No one anywhere is suggesting that a customer will be worse off financially after a GD.

There are far too many just fanning fear or political reasons not to use GD yet as I said before tell me a better system in cash strapped times? Please no more Daily Mail horror remarks folk come here to research and may see GD as of interest and read some of your nonsense.

This is remember voluntary at the end of the day it is not being forced on anyone but if you live in a cold home and want to not only enjoy some heat but possibly also lower bills it might b right for you.

Me_fishy_u_chippie

Howee,

Good to see you have a sense of humour. Yes, you are right on one thing - I am not getting the GD at all! And, as someone that is in the business of energy efficiency of buildings, I am advising all that ask about it, to steer well clear of it in its present format.

From what you said you clearly don't understand the GD! You said - "Next bit about loading up debt, the idea is they pay less overall via their electric bills". The Golden Rule is the amount the customer saves on their bill - pays for the efficiency upgrades AND an interest rate too or in English, it services the debt!!!!!!!

Quid pro quo - Save 10% by efficiency measures - service the debt by the corresponding amount. No savings in cash terms to the householder. Although, once the debt has been paid off they will have lower bills. That maybe in 25 years time!

Talk about fanning fear - that made me laugh - If you feel paying 7-12% interest in our present interest rate climate is a good deal go ahead - be my guest. My clients certainly wont be advised to take this up!

And you continue to confuse yourself and the forum. People with credit issues cant take out loans to buy brand new cars - they cant get credit - so the comparison is meaningless.

Your defence, merely to repeat that as there is no alternative - ergo, its the best deal - that is nonsense! The GD is a government initiative that is only "one" way to get energy efficiency measures undertaken, and a poor one at that for the "customer".

I posed the question in a previous post which you neatly body swerved. If any deal is a good deal - would you recommend taking out a loan with a "loan shark" as their clients get their money delivered in 15 minutes - if not why not?

A far better deal and one that is in the interest of all not just the providers, would be for the interest rate portion to be reasonable, say 3 or 4% max, that way there is both a long term benefit to the householder and an immediate benefit in delivering lower costs so that he benefits in his pocket today. But given all the misinformation from those trying to "sell" this dog of deal, its vital people on this forum are not bounced into thinking that this is a good deal when its patently not.

Its not rocket science!

sheffield_lad

So fishy if you had no access to any funding, lived in an all electric property with an annual bill of over £3k and still could not get warm would you consider GD?

As I have said many times if you have the money, credit history, nouse to find a better deal knock yourself out go for it. If however you don't the GD offers you a way to improve your homes efficiency.

As for rates of interest have a look around apart from the nationwide offer most rates for loans are circa 6-7% and while that may be the case now when competition arrives I do expect the rates to start dropping. You mention 25yrs like it's the only time period GD has to offer yet fail, tut tut as a CDEA (SBEM being upside down must have fried your brain ), to realise that loft or cavity insulation would take far less time to repay again all the nonsense 12% APR over 25 yrs is just not putting the case correctly.

I am not going to comment further on this other than to offer folk looking for advice just that. I hope you will also be able to hold your negativity although I am not suggesting you don't offer your version of advice.

Back to shares forum for me

monstereyebrows

Hi Me fishy u chippie

Quid pro quo - Save 10% by efficiency measures - service the debt by the corresponding amount. No savings in cash terms to the householder. Although, once the debt has been paid off they will have lower bills. That maybe in 25 years time!

You have got it spot on however there are somne additional points to consider:

1. As fuel prices continue to rise there would real savings as at the point the GD plan is taken out its based on the fuel price at the time.

2.There is good reason for insulating your property not just for saving money but also thermal comfort. speak to someone with poor insulation siting in lounge watcthing TV being warm for short periods then room cooling down then warming up again as heating kicks in then cooling down quickly etc.

3. The issue is the public response to energy saving being just about saving money. If someone does not want to take up insulation measures because they cannot save actual money (although cost GD should be ccost neutral - with savings in later years due to energy cost rises) then for that maybe 25 years without insulation they have added say 30 tonnes of CO2 to the atmosphere. I understand the motivation is often about money but if its cost neutral then why not do it. Of course you dont have to do on a GD there may be better ways at lower cost ie. DIY loft insulation

Ecodave

Monstereyebrows - The cost prices in the calculation of energy savings in green Deal is currently pegged to an average rate that was charged in the middle of 2012. As the prices have gone up 7-8% since then, there are likely to be savings to be made by implementing measures on day one, never mind having to wait for future price increases.

monstereyebrows

Ecodave wrote: »

Monstereyebrows - The cost prices in the calculation of energy savings in green Deal is currently pegged to an average rate that was charged in the middle of 2012. As the prices have gone up 7-8% since then, there are likely to be savings to be made by implementing measures on day one, never mind having to wait for future price increases.

I take you point but you are not quite correct its not middle of 2012 (June) they are changed every 6 months so an EPC today will be using SAP 2009 FUEL PRICE DATA for December 2012.

spacemanc

Regarding future energy price increases, I would be careful. The USA has seen large drops in the price of gas due to their shale gas industry taking off.

Although the usual suspects will cry about shale gas in the UK, it's too attractive for the government to ignore and we will be exploiting it over the next decade. I'd be surprised if we saw a price drop (unless international prices drop in response to shale gas) but it's also quite likely that prices will stay around their current levels.

In response to fishy - if your "clients" have a bad credit rating, who do you send them to for finance? wonga.com? What APR do they charge? I think you'll find it's a somewhat higher rate than 7% Throughout this thread everyone has said that if you can self finance with savings or bank loans, then that is a better option. Even then, the Green Deal assessment is worthwhile to explain to customers what their options are.