Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

sheffield_lad

paulmapp8306 wrote: »

But yes, British gas quoted £3200 on green deal - local installer is charging £1600 for the same install.

Green Deal is a massive rip off, only of value to those who need a boiler (because the old is broken) and have no money.

You may be mixing two things up there, as said in a previous post BG are expensive for boilers regardless of funding. I know of a few local firms who are looking to get involved with GD not to raise prices just to get more work.

If you have the !!!!!! to shop around not only for boilers but also for finance you really don't need the GD but the scheme is there as a fall back to many who don't.



GD is aimed at folk with poor insulation/heating who may have credit issues.

spacemanc

znbmum wrote: »

Spacemanc... I will contact the assessor tomorrow and ask them if they can change it to electric heating. Do you know if I am allowed to get an assessment with a different company if I am not happy or do I contact an ombudsmen?
Also, do you know if there is a time limit as to how long they can take to send a certificate? Or whatever the next step should be. After he told me the result of the assessment he just walked out and said I would get something in the post in a couple of months.... does this sound right?

You can get as many assessments as you like, but theoretically they should all have the same result, and if adifferent assessor finds a different result on a subsequent visit then he should report it - the assessors are audited quite a lot and can be easily suspended if they get assessments wrong. There is an ombudsman here :

http://www.ombudsman-services.org/downloads/About%20the%20Green%20Deal.pdf

I'm not sure how effective they are, and you might actually have a better result speaking to the certification body shown on the EPC.

Regarding the advisor walking out after the assessment - once he submits the assessment, then basically his job is finished - he's supposed to submit an accurate impartial assessment and then pass it up the chain. But in practise most of the current assessors work for installers, which seriously questions their impartiality, especially when many are on commision for completed installations - a big flaw in my opinion.

paulmapp8306 wrote: »

Not really. Im currently on £37k and cant afford to finance a new boiler......

Green Deal is a massive rip off, only of value to those who need a boiler (because the old is broken) and have no money.

I'd say your an unusual case as well tbh!

And Green Deal in general isn't a rip off - it just needs to be understood and like anything, you need to shop around on prices - which is hard to do right now because of lack of competition.

It's going to be a massive scheme and it's we're only a few weeks in. As a country we have steep Kyoto targets to hit (or face massive fines) so we need to spend £10's billions making our homes more efficient. Green Deal is the "least worst" way of doing it, so although it might be tweaked over the coming years, it won't be going away.

paulmapp8306

Sorry cant agree. EVERY GD supplier I have been in contact with is at least £1000 more expensive than the tree independents Ive looked at. Its the "locking into an authorised supplier" thats really killing GD. If it wasnt there and you could choose your supplier from anywhere, then its finance for reasonably priced goods if you cant get finance elsewhere and need it.

As a country we are not capable of hitting Kyoto targets. They were stupid to commit to, and were always out of reach.

If you WANT to become more energy efficient - there are many many cheaper ways of achieving as good or better results than GD.

I am not on benefits, and earn £37k. In the last 12 months Ive had loft insulation, Cavity wall insulation, a new efficient boiler, new A+++ appliances, new windows with energy saving glass throughout and solar panels. Total cost to me has been £7. Using GD Id have got a lot less greener for a lot more dosh. There is nothing else I can do to get greener - apart from underfloor insulation but theres no room under the flooring and would mean emptying the rooms and lifting carpets.

Ecodave

paulmapp8306 - in the interest of clarity, could you post the amounts quoted on the various Green Deal plans offered to you, along with the equivalent quotes from 'independent' companies.

Spacemanc's point about the development of Green Deal is completely valid. There will be plenty of smaller, cheaper, companies chasing the work in the coming years, so expect GD to become competitive. It's early days yet.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Nationwide at just 2.29% — less than a third of the interest rate under the green deal did the 'green deal' practitioners a disservice and the government and ourselves the customers a huge big favour by introducing a competitive element into the scheme. Nothing since then from any other alternative funding model. And importantly no alternative delivery model.

Many of us were reading on this subject 9 months ago, those early design days were aware of the potential for another 'in house' stitch up by the industry and much work was supposed to have been done by GOV to nail it down hard and make sure on this occasion it could not happen. The recognised the potential for the next 'selling scam', its well documented since last summer. I wish it was different, but regardless of the effort of the policy development working groups to avoid the Arthur Daly element the tail was wagging the dog long before the roll out date.

It, past tense, has already happened. Nationwide's offer of 2.29% is in the finance, not the delivery area of the model so the delivery model is completely hi-jacked before it even gets off the ground. All actors at all levels on the delivery model are 'in house' and on commission based reward payment systems. Call me a cynic but the delivery model is already a mirror image of PPI / and / or / other delivery models later found to be mis-selling.

DECC's waiving of registration and lodgement fees for the first two years for smaller organisations + the £3m up front 'gifted' money for training GD advisers & SWI training has shown little returns on numbers thus far. Add the carrot of the 'early adopter bribes of up to £1k for GD I would have expected more much more, the greed of those who now control the delivery model, and the greed of the financial model have again contrived to kill in its infancy what could and should have helped householders in general and the poorer households in the particular to counter the rising energy costs.

John_Pierpoint

paulmapp8306 wrote: »

Sorry cant agree. EVERY GD supplier I have been in contact with is at least £1000 more expensive than the tree independents Ive looked at. Its the "locking into an authorised supplier" thats really killing GD. If it wasnt there and you could choose your supplier from anywhere, then its finance for reasonably priced goods if you cant get finance elsewhere and need it.

As a country we are not capable of hitting Kyoto targets. They were stupid to commit to, and were always out of reach.

If you WANT to become more energy efficient - there are many many cheaper ways of achieving as good or better results than GD.

I am not on benefits, and earn £37k. In the last 12 months Ive had loft insulation, Cavity wall insulation, a new efficient boiler, new A+++ appliances, new windows with energy saving glass throughout and solar panels. Total cost to me has been £7. Using GD Id have got a lot less greener for a lot more dosh. There is nothing else I can do to get greener - apart from underfloor insulation but theres no room under the flooring and would mean emptying the rooms and lifting carpets.

Presumably you meant £7k.:D

In terms of greening the home, you are way ahead of me.
I am a semi retired OAP, so I am time & capital rich but income poor, with a marginal tax rate of 30%.
What bugs me is the "competent person" regulations.
To get anything done, I have to talk to "surveyors" (salesmen) who know less about my home than I do and probably less about the product they are pushing; their motivation is their commission, and the best solution may well not pay the most commission.
Then it has to be fitted by someone who has paid a lot of money to take a 3 day training course and now has a certificate saying he is an expert.

Your improvements seem like excellent value for money and I would be interested in comparing notes, with my efforts so far.

Back in the cowboy 1970's I was a self renovator, life was simple then - you just built it and the local authority passed it.

paulmapp8306

Its all strange.

As for quotes, when looking for a boiler, I had 3 quotes from "Green Deal" authorise companies, all over £3k (British Gas being the most expensive). I had 3 local independents quote for the same boiler/work and all were under £1800. Interest on the DG would be 7%, and I could get a bank loan for less.

I had the loft and cavity done for free, as are the panels (though I dont get the FITs - I do save on my electric bill - more than I though I would). I paid for LED lights throughout - which cost me £200 but wernt available on GD even if I wanted them. I paid for the windows (cut price from a local supplier), appliances (when I had a new kitchen) and boiler (ditto).

I agree in THEORY, Green Deal should be good - BUT, the problem is the use of authorised installers - all of which (at least that I know of) are currently main installers - and overly expensive. Add the interest rate which puts off anyone who has capital OR who can get independent finance, AND the charge for the initial assessment which may put off those with little money.

What SHOULD happen, is the government should use the money its going to have to pay in fines (if we fail to meet our targets) and/or some of the "green" tax money (from petrol sales etc) and provide FREE surveys, Interest free loans (or at least at base rates), paid back from the savings made, and the ability to use any supplier/installer that are registered with their trade body (ie Gas Safe Registered).

That way - theres no negatives for having an assessment, there a huge incentive to get the work done (ie no interest to pay on money borrowed, and no extra outgoings as its paid from the savings), and lower overall costs (due to greater choice of installers. This last part also means people will see bills reduce sooner - because theres less money to pay back (currently wheres the incentive? what you save on bills goes out in payments for the install for a long time).

The whole GD just strikes me as the government wanting to appear to be supporting green/energy saving works - without really being committed to them. The whole thing could be more appealing to the user, with more incentives, cheaper and easier.

Ecodave

Quote:I agree in THEORY, Green Deal should be good - BUT, the problem is the use of authorised installers - all of which (at least that I know of) are currently main installers - and overly expensive.

There are 965 installers registered as authorised to work under the Green Deal scheme. Are all of these 'main installers' and 'overly expensive' ? Are you really telling us that you have contacted most (or even some) of them to get quotes?

You state that you have quotes from 'green deal authorised companies' but stop short from actually stating that these were quotes directly through the Green Deal process, could you clarify whether or not this is the case? If you say it is the case, could you tell me who your assessment was conducted by, who were the Provider organisations that quoted for your work, what rates of interest were they willing to charge you, did they all conduct credit checks on you, how long did it take from assessment to receiving quotes?

I have lots more questions about the process, but I will leave at these for now.

sheffield_lad

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Call me a cynic but the delivery model is already a mirror image of PPI / and / or / other delivery models later found to be mis-selling.

lol, your priceless.

spacemanc

Paul and Richie - you need to bear in mind that GD isn't even really running yet. Over the coming months, you'll see more and more installers becoming authorised, especially the smaller cheaper companies (it's really not that difficult or expensive for them to be qualified) and you'll also see lower interest rates offered on the loans.

The rate offered by Nationwide Building Society for their loans is actually 2.8% if you don't have a mortgage with them. They carry out credit checks and their loans are secured on your home (they're basically offering a second mortgage and their T&C state that you need at least 15% equity in your home) I think over the next year or two we'll see Green Deal finance offered at closer to 5%, as investors start to realise it's a fairly secure loan with a good return. After all if Nationwide are so "generous" they could offer their low rate finance directly through Green Deal, instead of cherry picking the most credit worthy.

Paul you're ideas for making Green Deal work are great, but I think you forget that the government no longer has a magic money tree to pay for your ideas - they can't afford to dangle carrots. In 5-10 years time the government (whoever is in power) is going to start using a lot more "stick" to push Green Deal. Landlords will see the start of this in 5 years when they can no longer let inefficient homes.

Green Deal is realistic - householders pay for it, and they get at least an equal benefit from it. It's much fairer than things like the Solar feed in tariff, where basically everyone pays for a few to benefit.