Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

Coulsdon_Town

howee wrote: »

Training has been available for £350 to DEA's right up to last week which is hardly extortionate.

Yes, quite right. Although i was thinking of the cost if they aren't already a DEA - about £2000. These G.D. Advisors seem to be a varied bunch, and some may have trained because they are actually interested in reducing Co2 emissions and or householders' energy bills!
Unfortunately some (most?) of the Domestic Energy Assessor (DEA) 'old hands', whom the gov saw as a nearly ready-made workforce for G.D., believe they are going to get commissions for each element fitted under a green deal plan. I believe it's what their industry is used to. Obviously this could lead to many visits being neither accurate nor impartial.
Anyone know of a Green Deal Advice Organisation whose G.D. Advisors will NOT be receiving any commissions?

Coulsdon_Town

howee wrote: »

https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/increasing-the-use-of-low-carbon-technologies/supporting-pages/renewable-heat-incentive-rhi

As I mentioned earlier the go live date is Sept 2013 (this paper says the summer but I have been told defo not before Sept 2013).

I don't think ws systems are anything to do with RHI they have sorted (by the look of it), there own package with a finance company.

As you will see in the link RHI works with other renewables not PV solar.

Forthe 2posters awaiting GD providers I would say just be patient the scheme is in its infancy and teething problems will soon be ironed out. GL to you both.

And Quote "There does not seem to be a better option. To the posters above are having trouble with getting access like I said I would be patient as this [Green Deal] is a new scheme and it needs to find it's feet. If it's not up and running by the time RHI arrives then the system will need re looking at."

RHI launch (Renewable Heat Incentive) now delayed until 'Spring 2014' - see link below. That's now an awfully long time to wait for Green Deal to start working properly. It will have lost all credibility long before then i fear.
http://www.greenwisebusiness.co.uk/news/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive-to-be-further-delayed-3873.aspx

John_Pierpoint

I have been in suspended animation for about three years now; fearful and confused:
I want a ground source heat pump to power a new (mainly) underfloor central heating system, but:

When will the government get its act together ?

Will there be another golden period when the up front payment and the ongoing incentive both apply. (as there was with pv panels)?

How do I find a competent engineer for a retrofit (I don't need a salesman)?

In the meantime I think I will concentrate on installing a log burner and a new chimney - can anyone point on design guide information for installing room dealed log burners NOT sited to back on against an exterior wall ?

Size66

Had the assessment done via british gas and have to say im very surprised and disappointed at the report - heres the detail we are a family of 2 adults 1 toddler and a baby on the way - the house is a 1100 + year old 3 bed room semi, with large tall rooms ( 360 m3 ) very large and tall hallway, solid walls, 25 year old boiler, basement, & doulbe glazing - we DO have loft insulation and double galzing through out. The assessor came and spent his two hours wandering around and then went through the report with me and basically asked what i wanted to be looked into. ( eh? - hes the assessor!! ) what he basically said is that my house has normal energy use?? cant believe that, it is big and very cold - and his computer only gave the option of solid wall insulation _ a non starter in my house for several reasons so we said no - and a new boiler. The solid wall option was replaced by underfloor insulation as they seemed to be mutually exclusive. my confusion comes from the fact that i KNOW that my house is very very cold - even with the heating on at full belt ALL day - So cold my nose feels cold to the touch and the beds can feel damp. the front door and rear door are ill fitting and wood and the draught can nearly blow a candle out, draughts can be felt around skirting boards etc. Im guessing that dealing with the draughts etc would reduce the need for heat and reduce the bills etc so why no mention of any measures on my green deal report to do any of this? OK so its all very obvious but the fact that the assessor never even mentioned obvious stuff makes me think they are only there to ID certain things - yes i know a new boiler would help, didnt need assessment to work that out, and yes underfloor insulation might help - i already knew that too but waht about green deal mentioning new UPVC doors, draught exclusion measures etc etc - not a fan of GD now £100 down the drain

Gloucester_Lad

I made a few comments in the early pages of this forum pointing out the shortcomings of this, in my view, very poor deal of a Green Deal.
I've been reading the various comments made by others since in which experiences and interesting information has been shared.

The majority consensus appears quite rightly to be that this "tramp steamer of a flagship policy" is not very good and it seems to me unlikely the take up rate is going to anything to write home about.

There are however a few people who still think the Green Deal is a goer. Don't know if that's vested interest or sincere but arithmetically challenged support or what.

Thought I'd come back just to address some points made by these supporters.

Some keep saying 7% interest is reasonable and competitive for an unsecured loan.
Well the loan is fixed to the electricity bill of the property in question. Now unless the house is disconnected and remains empty for a very long time, both rather unlikely, I'd call that a pretty secure loan which arguably should mean loan rates near to mortgage rates.

Some suggest it doesn't cost much to become an accredited Green Deal installer and there is therefore no reason to expect improvement measure prices to be inflated.
Well, if you are British Gas or some other big outfit then no the cost is relatively small. But British Gas and their like already charge silly money for things like new boilers. If you are a small local plumber becoming a Green Deal accredited installer is expensive and you'll be spending a lot of non-productive time servicing the paperwork. Hard to keep your prices 50% less than British Gas then.
So inflated prices for Green Deal installations will happen, no matter how many quotes you get, because they'll all have to be accredited.

Some suggest there will be checks and measures in place, along with an audit system, that will prevent GDAdvisers mis-selling.
Well many GDAdviser will be at least part paid on a commission basis. If what they do really is totally impartial why pay commission at all? Or are they really expected to be salespeople as well. And telling the homeowner you are tied to an installer before you start your sales pitch makes it all alright does it? Don't think so. GDAvisers must be completely independent to have any credibility at all.

Some have said "if we don't have the Green Deal how do we improve UK housing energy efficiency?"
Well perhaps we should ask what the Government objective is here.
It is not necessarily to save the consumer money, that's clear. It is however most definitely to reduce Co2 output in order to comply with an internationally signed up to commitment. These two things are not, in fact nowhere near, the same.
So what could be an alternative to the Green Deal?
Like it or not international commitment to reduce Co2 was made by a Government we elected so it could be argued we have collective responsibility. I would therefore suggest that we go back to a grant subsidy system to finance (or part finance along with interest free loans) improvements to a minimum standard with the money coming from general taxation. Not levies on energy bills general taxation like income tax, so everyone able to contribute does.

If we leave it to private enterprise (and a scheme like the Green Deal) plenty of people are going to get rich, plenty of consumers are going to pay well over the odds, plus interest, and save nothing.

I think (and hope) the Green deal will go the way of other poorly thought out Government schemes (of which there are plenty) and be consigned to the scrap heap in favour a something that will work and that is fair.

sheffield_lad

Gloucester_Lad wrote: »

would therefore suggest that we go back to a grant subsidy system to finance (or part finance along with interest free loans) improvements to a minimum standard with the money coming from general taxation. Not levies on energy bills general taxation like income tax, so everyone able to contribute does.

What do you mean go back? To what exactly? Warm front was a grant scheme which cost over £330m per year yet very few folk qualified in fact if you were not on pension credit or invalidity forget it.

Saying taxation will pay for it is all nice and fluffy but that's not the way it would be received it would need a pot of over £1 billion per year to cover the population it would rightly be seen as a cost to the taxpayer we could do without given the state of the nation. No government repeat no government no matter which colour will go back to grants they are gone. We need to find a way for the less well off to be able to reduce their spending on fuel bills and increase their comfort without paying money up front. The GD offers this.

Remember current deficit (how much we are short every year), is £122b ish and current debt (how much we have racked up already and owe back), is over £1 trillion!!!

As stated previous GD is not going away as Labour also support it.

Gloucester_Lad

sheffield_lad wrote: »

Gloucester_Lad wrote: »

would therefore suggest that we go back to a grant subsidy system to finance (or part finance along with interest free loans) improvements to a minimum standard with the money coming from general taxation. Not levies on energy bills general taxation like income tax, so everyone able to contribute does.

What do you mean go back? To what exactly? Warm front was a grant scheme which cost over £330m per year yet very few folk qualified in fact if you were not on pension credit or invalidity forget it.

Saying taxation will pay for it is all nice and fluffy but that's not the way it would be received it would need a pot of over £1 billion per year to cover the population it would rightly be seen as a cost to the taxpayer we could do without given the state of the nation. No government repeat no government no matter which colour will go back to grants they are gone. We need to find a way for the less well off to be able to reduce their spending on fuel bills and increase their comfort without paying money up front. The GD offers this.

Remember current deficit (how much we are short every year), is £122b ish and current debt (how much we have racked up already and owe back), is over £1 trillion!!!

As stated previous GD is not going away as Labour also support it.

What do I mean go back?
Well just that. when there was a grant system some improvements actually got done. Anyone could get loft or cavity wall for £150 or less. All that stopped come the Green Deal full price now plus interest. Is it any surprize loft and cavity installer are laying off people.
Yes there is ECO but many many people still not exactly awash with cash who won't qualify.

Saying taxation will pay for it is all nice and fluffy?
I don't see why. To say this places an unbearable burden on the taxpayers of an impoverished nation is nonsense. It is not automatically the case that anyones tax bill will increase it's about choices we have in spending tax money that's currently already collect. Not that the lot in power have ever been squeamish about whacking more tax on us at any time they like.

We could all produce a list of things the treasury spends money on which might better be spent improving housing energy efficiency, and saving normal average people some energy bill cash, and it doesn't have to be billions and billions on day one the expenditure could be phased. So why automatically dismiss such an idea?

And you say "We need to find a way for the less well off to be able to reduce their spending on fuel bills and increase their comfort without paying money up front. The GD offers this".

Well anyone with even a modest grasp of arithmetic knows the GD won't offer this, and for all the reasons plenty of people have highlighted in this forum.

If we have to rely on the Green Deal basically it ain't going to happen, at least to anything like the level expected or required, and no one if anyone is over the longer term going to save much if any money.
And the only way we'll know for sure if that statement is correct is to wait and see.

Meanwhile I'll do my bit where I can to help prevent people being ripped off with inflated prices, interest charges, no real savings for years if ever, a golden rule that 90% of the time won't work, a real problem if they want to sell their house and a chance of being a victim of mis-selling.

We really must be able to do better, surely we must.

Size66

Had the assessment done by British Gas - See earlier post - not impressed, However, pressed on to get some provider quotes - very confusing info on Green Deal Orb Site about providers in my area + the ones that are there on the site look like johnny come lately companies set up to clean up on the green deal !!! not to be put off i rang british gas as per the covering letter that i got with the assessment ''.....if you would like to get a personalised quote on some or all of the products recommended ......'' call this number ... so i did, guess what, British Gas cannot do anything in terms of quotes or discussing my report as the funding is yet to be relased _ theyve took my number so they can contact me at some time ___ totally ridiculous - theyve took my £100 pound for an assessment that did not tell me as much as i already know and then cant follow through on their poor assessment .........:mad:

spacemanc

Gloucester_Lad wrote: »

Meanwhile I'll do my bit where I can to help prevent people being ripped off with inflated prices, interest charges, no real savings for years if ever, a golden rule that 90% of the time won't work, a real problem if they want to sell their house and a chance of being a victim of mis-selling.

We really must be able to do better, surely we must.

You are correct about one thing - the companies with high prices, may appear to some householders to be "the government scheme" - when really Green Deal is a marketplace where people should shop around. Obviously people are responsible for what they sign up to, but it should be made much clearer that there are other providers and prices vary.

Regarding your "90% of the time the golden rule wont work" - that's rubbish. The vast majority of work which will be authorised under the golden rule, will be cavity and loft insulation, which has a payback of around 5 years. Some boilers will also be replaced, and that will involve replacing boilers with newer models offering around double the efficiency - ie use half the gas, which will give significant savings for some people.

Why do you think that all taxpayers should pay for this work to be done? The beneficiaries will be seeing large savings in their bills, so I see no reason why they shouldn't pay for the work. Do you really think that would be fair for us all to pay for that? Also the grant schemes are still going strong for disadvantaged groups - ECO alone will give grants of around £2.3 billion to poorer households over the next 18 months - that is significant money. There's also several other schemes still running which are targeted at poorer households and disadvantaged areas.

woollyjumper

I'm trying to get Markgroup to do a free house survey , not sure how successful that will be.