MSE News: Green Deal launches to help insulate homes

murphydog999

OK, so we are in the same boat as Jono2000, and about to renovate an old property, so my questions are (as I can't see 'the golden rule' applying)

1. With all the horror stories concerning CWI, we would prefer external insulation on our cavity walls - as we are timber cladding also - and interior insulation on the solid walls, but would we have to comply with the assessors assessment?

2. Do you have to take up the finance?

3. Can I not get my builder to fit the recommended products and claim back the difference? (I know you are all laughing at that one, but it would be easier, to get the same result!)

grahamc2003

murphydog999 wrote: »

OK, so we are in the same boat as Jono2000, and about to renovate an old property, so my questions are (as I can't see 'the golden rule' applying)

1. With all the horror stories concerning CWI, we would prefer external insulation on our cavity walls - as we are timber cladding also - and interior insulation on the solid walls, but would we have to comply with the assessors assessment?

2. Do you have to take up the finance?

3. Can I not get my builder to fit the recommended products and claim back the difference? (I know you are all laughing at that one, but it would be easier, to get the same result!)

Not sure how external insulation on cavity walls would work. Surely the heat would travel through the inside brick to the cavity and then be carried away by air circulation in the cavity wouldn't it?

The bumpf I got with my CVI stated the insulation allowed water molecules to migrate through the material, so damp shouldn't be an issue. I think if the house is sound (with no 'rising' or other damp), then it's ok to fill the cavity on Southish facing walls, and usually ok on northish facing too, under normal circumstances. (I'm not any sort of surveyor btw, so treat with caution!). I had a bit of damp before in one corner of one room, and cvi didn't make it any worse or any better. I do notice rooms are warmer in the morning than they used to be, so CVI works for me. (large Victorian house with big cavity and slate damp proof course, the latter also being a worry regarding cvi installation).

rogerblack

Jono2000 wrote: »

We need a simple worked example or two here!
<snip>
. I had a new Glowword combi and some pipework in as small flat last year, cost me around £1500. How much would a Green Deal package installer charge?

As I understand it, they would not do this, but would only fit a whole system - basically for reliability reasons it would be insane for them to fit onto old pipework.
I am unsure if such would be permitted, even if they were willing.
If the householder is willing to bear the risk, they can choose the slightly riskier option of fitting onto existing systems, but they may well not have the choice under the green deal.

Ecodave

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Not sure what you find insulting - I just said that in my opinion, I expect that largely, most assessors will have received little training and have probably been various salesmen in the past. If you aren't in that category, then there's no need for you to feel insulted, and indeed, even if you are, I can't see the insult.

But just to set the record straight, could you tell us how much formal training you received to become a professional assessor?

Because a simple google shows people who don't even know what a cavity wall is can pay a grand to attend a 5 day course, and they are then qualified assessors. Then they are part of a privileged monopoly, and can go out assessing buildings and presumably advising on any work required, and are able to negotiate whatever fee they can for doing so. Is that correct, or have I got the incorrect impression? I'm pretty certain that most who pay for such an assessment will assume the assessor has had more than a handful of days of formal training.

Hi Graham,

Is this post directed at me? I can't see in the posts where anyone has become indignant about your comment regarding training.

But, just for the record, I am one of the new entrants to this field, something that I am not at all embarrassed about, everybody involved in anything has to have a first day. Like you, I have followed the progress from a couple of years ago. The potential for this scheme to help people to improve their conditions struck a chord with me. When I learned of the 20000 extra deaths that occur each year through winter months, and the roll that poor insulation in houses has in these cases, I felt it was something that I wanted to get involved in.

In September last year I commenced my training, which initially consisted of a 3 day course to introduce the principles of building design throughout the years, building services, dating property methods of insulation etc. When I left the course, I commenced the online component. Three weeks later I returned for a 2 day course on the Green Deal, which covered the principles of the scheme, the scheme operating requirements, the code of practice, hints at communicating the ideas, complicated as they can be, etc. when I left the course , I commenced the online component of this course.

Having a young family and a full time job, I struggled to devote sufficient time to the further online studies, and by November I felt that my progress was too slow. In order to focus completely on the course, which I had invested the best part of £3k in, I decided that I had no choice but to leave my full time position. I have been studying nearly every day since then, except for allowing myself time off at Christmas, and a recent bout of illness. I still have about 25% of the course to complete.

I am sure there are easier routes to gain entry to the qualification, however I chose a route that would give potential employers confidence in me, and I have no regrets in that. As I saw it, this was an investment in my future, and in my ability to achieve my goals of securing a future for myself and my family, and hopefully helping some people in real hardship.

I hadn't found your comments insulting, do you think maybe I should have?

alixandrea

What a lovely post EcoDave, and good for you for investing so much time in your education!:j

Having done so, would you be able to communicate to us the details of the scheme, how it will help people in real hardship and any other points that we may be missing? I am still very much skeptical about it but I am completely willing to have my mind changed by someone who has had extensive training in the subject.

Alixandrea

Ecodave

joelmark wrote: »

Does anybody have any positive thoughts on the green deal? as a home owner i think this could be quite good for some people.My home is very old & quite large & very cold in winter.I don't have the money upfront for a new boiler or for any other improvements.If i am not going to see any increase in my bills then why not have a lovely warm home? I'm not thinking of selling anytime soon & don't necessarily agree it would hinder a sale.If the house is for sale at the right price it should sell.At the end of the day could these improvements not be seen as a good selling point? Yeah its a loan but as your not finding extra money each month to pay it i wouldn't feel the hit as much.

Hi Joel,

It's refreshing to see that someone is prepared to look through the waves of negative and often ill informed speculation about the Green Deal, and consider how it might apply to them.

The reasons why you will be told its a bad idea will be that
1) you will struggle to sell your home with a green deal package on it.
2) the interest rate is shockingly high
3) the measures won't save you a penny piece

So lets take a look at these objections.

1) If you tried to sell your home with a Green Deal on it today, would you have any problems? Well, probably yes, the reason being is that people will not like something that they don't understand (you just have to read forums like this to work that out). But you won't be selling it today, or tomorrow, and by the time you do, it will be far more commonplace. Leasehold properties are already sold with service contracts built into them, nobody bats an eyelid, because they understand what they are getting for their money. If you go ahead with the Green Deal, keep all your old energy bills and future ones, to show how much of an impact they have had (and will continue to have).

2) The interest rate is too high. I have to admit that I am disappointed that it is not a bit lower. I suppose the question as to whether its too high is a personal one? If it stops you doing the Green Deal, will you borrow elsewhere to do the measures, and what rate could you borrow at. If you have a poor credit history, you may not be able to borrow it elsewhere at all ( perhaps loan sharks excepted ). If the rate stops you installing the measures, then I would say that is a mistake. Whatever the interest rate, it will have to meet the Golden Rule so your monthly payments should not go up. If you are happy with that premise (note everyone, premise, not promise) then don't let the rate stop you.

3) The measures will save you money if you follow the advice that you are given. Many of us are quite wasteful with energy, it comes from decades of cheap energy thanks to the reserves in the North Sea. Those days have gone. We need to pull our belts in. We need to be efficient. Insulate first, improve efficiency of heat creation, improve the controls of the heating system, DON'T LEAVE LIGHTS ON, (sorry that one is for my mrs). The measures are tested to death to see how they work. The results of the testing are used as a base for the calculations of the Golden Rule. It can't be a guarantee though, as you may decide to always watch Eastenders in your underpants with the heating at 30 degrees, when previously it was a duffle coat and thermals.

You say your home is very old? How old? Does it have solid walls? If so, then the most expensive measure, solid wall insulation, will attract a significant amount of grant funding. And as you have identified the opportunities at the start of the scheme, if you move fast and get the ball rolling, you should be in line for cash backs for the measures you install. The cash backs work in the form of vouchers to offset the cost, so reduce the amount you end up paying each month.

Your only commitment initially will be the cost of the assessment, perhaps £100. You will be issued with an advice report, which you will have decided on with the help so the assessor, so you only get installed the measures you want. The advice report can be given to as many Providers as you want, in order to get quotes. The Provider may also refund your assessment fee if you go ahead, it will be in the quote.

Good luck if you go ahead, and please keep us posted.

rogerblack

Ecodave wrote: »

3) The measures will save you money if you follow the advice that you are given.

May save you money.
If all the assumptions work, the insulation performs as it does on the average property, the assessment is accurate.
There is as I understand it, no guarantee of savings, even if the house remains used as it is currently.
(savings are in most cases presumably likely after the green deal loan is paid off)

In addition, the measures you mention - turning off lights, turning the heating down if it's warmer than it needs to be - are rather irrelevant to the green deal.
Clearly, if you lump these in as green deal savings, it looks lots better.
Lumping in 'advice' savings with 'hard' savings due to actual modifications seems dubious at best.

Richie-from-the-Boro

One pre-assumption is already almost dead in the water, and by a high margin. The transfer of insulation costs from the treasury to the householder was based on the lower VAT rate of 5 per cent, products such as controls for heating and hot water systems, to include the bulk of all insulation be it solid wall or loft or whatever. Add a further 15% to the cost with its associated 7 years cumulative and suddenly the cost changes. Transferring that cost to householders requires the retrofitting 80 existing buildings to a band A level EPC needs to happen every 60 minutes for the next 40 years.

On a the same subject its nothing more than a carbon trading scheme for individuals, brought in through the back door and directly paid for on interest accruing credit by homeowners, a kind of non-governmental individualised version of a PFI.

The UK has two critical legal obligations :

- eradicating fuel poverty by 2016
- an 80% reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050

Note : from HM Treasury and the tree hugging 'dems' part of the CONdems, thanks folks ......................................... again !

Ecodave

alixandrea wrote: »

What a lovely post EcoDave, and good for you for investing so much time in your education!:j

Having done so, would you be able to communicate to us the details of the scheme, how it will help people in real hardship and any other points that we may be missing? I am still very much skeptical about it but I am completely willing to have my mind changed by someone who has had extensive training in the subject.

Alixandrea

Thanks for that Alixandria.

The Green Deal helps people who are struggling by making finance available to improve the efficient use of energy in their home. There is a sister scheme, the Energy Company Obligation, that steps in to provide further support for low income families, and other vulnerable groups, and for properties that are hard-to-treat (eg solid walls) There are millions of households that won't fall into the categories where ECO funding can help, and many of these will be having to make difficult decisions each winter about how, or if, they heat their homes. Many of these people will not have access to 0% credit cards, loans from the bank at 5%, that's why the extortionate loan rates charged by finance companies we see on the telly have prevailed.

So the offer is, get an assessment done (yes it costs, but in many cases the company you give the work to may refund the assessment fee) for about £100. You get an EPC, which if you sell your house in the next 10 years, will be valid for the house sale (estate agents already charge you about £100 for an EPC) and you get an advice report. The assessor will have talked through the various options with you, and built a scenario of improvement measures that forms the advice report. This can be taken to Providers for a quote to be prepared.

Once a quote is accepted, relevant experts should become involved to ascertain that the measures are appropriate. So if the recommendation is for a new condensing gas boiler, I would expect a gas safe engineer to be dispatched to flesh out the details, and check for problems that might appear, eg are the radiators up to the new system, do we need radiators in more rooms, have we though about siting of the boiler, ventilation problems? Etc.

When you start paying back the measures, the payments are added to the electricity fuel bills, they don't affect the rate per kwh that is charged for energy, and you remain free to switch suppliers. When you leave the property, the charge moves on to the next occupier, who will then be getting the benefits of the system. Are they likely to get the same benefits as you? No, some will get more some less. In most cases, they would still be better off than if they had not had the measures. And those that are worse off in this instance, well we are probably talking a few quid for a handful of people at some time in the future that is unspecified - no reason to get cold and bothered.

One of the main reasons that people don't invest in this kind of thing is that they think that they won't get the return on investment whilst they are at the property, say for another 5 years. The GD addresses that problem and finds a solution. It's not perfect, but what is? It can make millions of homes warm that otherwise will remain cold. In my opinion that's what matters.

Ecodave

rogerblack wrote: »

May save you money.
If all the assumptions work, the insulation performs as it does on the average property, the assessment is accurate.
There is as I understand it, no guarantee of savings, even if the house remains used as it is currently.
(savings are in most cases presumably likely after the green deal loan is paid off)

In addition, the measures you mention - turning off lights, turning the heating down if it's warmer than it needs to be - are rather irrelevant to the green deal.
Clearly, if you lump these in as green deal savings, it looks lots better.
Lumping in 'advice' savings with 'hard' savings due to actual modifications seems dubious at best.

Hi Roger,

Many people have the thermostats set too high in an attempt to compensate for the amount of heat quickly escaping from their uninsulated property. If post GD they don't amend this practice they will be overheating their homes, and they might resort to opening windows to let the heat out. If they don't follow the basic advice, how could they expect to save money? People often will not follow the advice though, old habits die hard, and that is why no guarantee can be made. The performance of the products and systems can be measured through testing, human behaviour is the weak link.

You say "There is as I understand it, no guarantee of savings, even if the house remains used as it is currently". How would you know if a house remains used as it is currently? Even with a very stable setting that is repeated year on year, the weather changes, prompting changes in use of energy.

So if the benchmark year is particularly mild, then the year after GD is particularly harsh, you would demand savings on your fuel bills? That's unrealistic.