MSE News: Green Deal launches to help insulate homes

alixandrea

Apols if this has already been asked as I haven't checked all the response. What about rental properties? With the huge emphasis we've had over the last ten years on 'buy to let' "investment" (ARGH, it's a HOME not a stock/share option!!) and many younger (and not so young) people being unable to afford to buy their own homes, there are an awful lot of people out there (myself included) who don't own the place that they live in.

So is it possible that the landlord could go ahead with a Green Deal insulation job on their property, with the tenant/s paying back the cost of the work on their electricity bills? And isn't it likely that the landlords in this case will put up the monthly rental of their properties because they're efficiently insulated? So the tenant effectively pays twice for their insulation.

If this offer is not available to landlords, well, that's an *awful* lot of ineligible properties that will continue to waste energy for decades to come, while the landlords sit around not doing anything to improve them, getting their retirement money out of the people who would have bought their house if the landlords hadn't put up the price in the first place in the buy to let gazzumping wars of earlier years...

:mad:

Sorry, rant over...

Alixandrea

sylviesinc

HappyBunny wrote: »

I don't know why everyone didn't take the free loft and wall insulation when they had the chance.

Because millions of pensioners like me live in Park Homes that don't have a loft or cavity walls. We could have extra insulation on the outside of our walls and under the floor but there's no assistance from anyone to pay for it. We are always overlooked in these schemes!

grahamc2003

Ecodave wrote: »

You are also incorrect about the calculations that make up the Golden Rule. These are performed by the EPC software based on the data input by the assessor.

I didn't realise one could be 'incorrect' while wondering about things.

The second point I was making was missed by you. It matters not who does the calculation - the point is that the additions to bills are the result of a theoretical saving estimated in advance, and not a real saving (if any) after installation.

So the 'Golden Rule' - which will be understood by most that bills overall will not increase by any green deal measures - is in fact very theoretical and vague.

It's becoming clear that Green Deal Assessors will not be professionally trained in the normal sense of the word, and will simply be, imv, largely salesmen who have probably done the rounds of selling cars, double glazing, solar panels, and have paid for a few days training to get qualified in this latest sales opportunity. Which doesn't bode well imv.

Jono2000

alixandrea wrote: »

So is it possible that the landlord could go ahead with a Green Deal insulation job on their property, with the tenant/s paying back the cost of the work on their electricity bills? And isn't it likely that the landlords in this case will put up the monthly rental of their properties because they're efficiently insulated? So the tenant effectively pays twice for their insulation.

:mad:

Alixandrea

Yes its available to Landlords, however they do have to get the tenants written permission, and vice-versa.

However, if the work is completed and the tenant moves out before the loan is paid off then the next tenant has to cough up for the previous installation, whether or not its saving a penny-piece or not.

Also I'm baffled as to how the charge is maintained between owners. Is it a legal charge against the title like a secured loan? How will the mortgage companies treat it?

Most true experts have expressed skepticism over the level of benefits and the mathematics involved, and as there is absolutely no guarantee of savings, that speaks volumes as to the gov's confidence in the scheme.

It would appear possible, if not probable, that anyone using this scheme may not receive the savings they expected, will pay over the odds for installation, funded by an uncompetitive loan and quite possible prevent sale or remortgage of the property in two or three years hence.

Its quite shocking how half-baked this scheme is. I keep thinking its an epidsode of "The thick of it", and we'll see some announcements, counter-announcements, civil servants in tears, shouting and swearing about the generally ****-ness of the scheme etc. To be honest there isn't a single independent commentator that has given this scheme a thumbs up.

This particular "flagship" appears very much holed beneath the waterline. HIPS mk2 anyone? Another helping of poll tax perhaps?
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

minislim

its all for the benefit of landlords and people who rent out their properties. it not going to benefit any home owners in reality.

i already have my loft insulated. but i looked into the free cavity wall insulation at the end of last year.
unfortunately i missed out on signing up for the scheme. but im slightly glad i did. as two houses on my road who have had the work done are now reporting problems with water tracking across the cavity to the inside walls and causing damp.

i have had a small camera into the cavity to inspect mine and i've found the potential cause. the walls where shoddyly built in the 70's and they never maintained the cavity as he built the walls up. bits of mortar are present throughout the cavity and the introduction of this insulation fill has given the outside water a path to track across.

phew! that was a close one. i can get some of the cavity cleared out which i'll have to do first. but i dont think i'll bother with this new scheme.

grahamc2003

Not sure what you find insulting - I just said that in my opinion, I expect that largely, most assessors will have received little training and have probably been various salesmen in the past. If you aren't in that category, then there's no need for you to feel insulted, and indeed, even if you are, I can't see the insult.

But just to set the record straight, could you tell us how much formal training you received to become a professional assessor?

Because a simple google shows people who don't even know what a cavity wall is can pay a grand to attend a 5 day course, and they are then qualified assessors. Then they are part of a privileged monopoly, and can go out assessing buildings and presumably advising on any work required, and are able to negotiate whatever fee they can for doing so. Is that correct, or have I got the incorrect impression? I'm pretty certain that most who pay for such an assessment will assume the assessor has had more than a handful of days of formal training.

Jono2000

Really, just "tick the right boxes" and money will be showered on you? Is that not a tad optimistic?

As it happens I'm about to refurbish a F-Grade turn of the century terrace in a northern city... that needs just about everything done to it.

My main objection to using the scheme is that no one knows how the mortgage companies will treat this. No one can say what kind of charge will be placed on the title of the property?

If that was clearly explained and the implications for remortgaging clarified I could do a fair comparison.

The second concern is that I'd be tied into using horrendously expensive installers. Given the cost differences between "packaged" solutions and the cost of employing (once you've found one) a reliable builder\installer is tremendous, just ask anyone who's dealt with "Kitchens Direct" or their ilk.

If its a gilt-edged "pay extra for the specialists" solution then the person who hasn't money in the bank won't be served by the scheme.

So, given my finances are, ahem, stretched with the refurbishment, I would be interested, however total clarification is required on future implications, and the ability to use my own, or suitably economical constractors for installation.

PS I've contacted 3 assessors so far, left messages for two, and the third one hadn't a clue and promised the manager would call back. I'm still waiting....

yikes..... according to Which? the rates can go to 9.5%.....

and for long term loans there is NO PROVISION for early repayment, you are effectively locked into paying back the full amount of interest you've agreed to from day 1.... here's the Which text

Can I pay off a Green Deal loan early?
Yes. Early repayment fees will be small when the Green Deal plan duration is 15 years or less. But for Green Deals of longer than 15 years there is an additional issue to be aware of that could be very significant, depending on the terms offered.

Should you wish to repay your Green Deal early, for example when you move house if the buyer does not want to take on the Green Deal, your provider is allowed to charge you a substantial fee for early repayment if they want. This is because under the regulations for the Green Deal the provider is entitled to claim for the interest that would have been paid by you should the Green Deal have run its course.

This is something Which? has argued against strongly because it could amount to a lot of money and we will be scrutinising this closely. We advise you to check terms and conditions like these very carefully.

joelmark

Does anybody have any positive thoughts on the green deal? as a home owner i think this could be quite good for some people.My home is very old & quite large & very cold in winter.I don't have the money upfront for a new boiler or for any other improvements.If i am not going to see any increase in my bills then why not have a lovely warm home? I'm not thinking of selling anytime soon & don't necessarily agree it would hinder a sale.If the house is for sale at the right price it should sell.At the end of the day could these improvements not be seen as a good selling point? Yeah its a loan but as your not finding extra money each month to pay it i wouldn't feel the hit as much.

Jono2000

We need a simple worked example or two here!

Say comparing an install of a gas combi boiler in a small flat with 4 radiators etc.

Direct comparisons between 0% credit cards (including the 3% setup fee per year over say 5 years) and we need real world assumptions - regular builder boiler costs. I had a new Glowword combi and some pipework in as small flat last year, cost me around £1500. How much would a Green Deal package installer charge?

That should be compared to 7,5% over 5 years possibly of a much larger amount.

My big worry would be the Package installer costs a fortune, comensurate with his expenses and lifestyle and shareholder demands not mine....

I guess if there's a situation with absolutely no access to credit in any form then this scheme could be a lifeline.

And this ALL presupposes that the proposed savings are REAL not imaginary.

External insulation of my solid walls could cost up to £14,000 apparently and save £376 per year. So taking into account interest that would about 40 years time before break even.

One final word re saving carbons - research shows that if you've saved several hundred pounds on energy there is a displacement cost with what the saved money is spent on. ie you could well save enough to afford jetting off on holiday, thus raising the carbon footprint more than you've saved.... dohhh.......

penrhyn

I predict that in a few years the Green Deal will be the subject of a similar mis-selling inquiry to PPI and pensions. With dodgy assessor/installers promising savings that never materialise, unsellable houses with charges on their electricity bills, and inflated installation costs.

Of course I could just be an old cynic.