Flight delay and cancellation compensation, KLM/AF ONLY

firstclassx

KLM have decided they want to play silly games over a flight delay... Can anyone advise?

Basically in Dec 2010 I flew PEK-AMS-MAN (Beijing - Manchester via Amsterdam). It was a ticketed connecting journey, i.e. on the one PNR/Ticket. All legs should have been operated by KLM.

Beijing-Amsterdam leg got delayed and eventually landed 117 minutes later, (i.e. 2 hours).

This caused me to miss the last connecting Manchester flight. As a result they decided to route me from Amsterdam to Manchester via London Heathrow. KLM provided the AMS-LHR flight, and they put me on the last BA flight from LHR-MAN.

The overall delay was 5 hours 20MINS, when compared against the original arrival time into Manchester.

Anyway, I complained in early 2011, and effectively got fobbed off. I didn't think I was entitled to compensation.

From reading this (and other) forums, I believe I am entitled to compensation. I decided to e-mail KLM and formally request compensation for the overall delay.

They replied saying I was not entitled because my flight KL898 from Beijing to Amsterdam was only delayed by 117 minutes, and not 3 hours and that although the other flights had not been missed as a result, they were not delayed, therefore I was not entitled to compensation.

There has been no mention of the reason behind the delay.

Anyone got any suggestions?

I have pdf letter which I intend to send, if someone could read it for me please!

1

United Kingdom
AIR FRANCE KLM UK Head Office Plesman House 2a Cains Lane Bedfont TW14 9RL

To whom it may concern,

I write in relation to a demand for compensation made under EC Regulation 261/2004 in accordance with the Civil Procedure Rules concerning Pre-Action Protocol.

The particulars of the delay(s), for which compensation is claimed, are as follows:


KL898 Beijing [PEK] to Amsterdam [AMS] Delayed by 117 minutes (1 hour 57 minutes)

KL1093 Amsterdam [AMS] to Manchester [MAN] Final connection missed as a result of KL898 delay

(Original) booked arrival time into Manchester was 16:20 PM.
As a result the late arrival of KL898 into Amsterdam, the booked and ticketed connecting flight to Manchester was missed. This resulted in KLM staff or representatives arranging an alternative route as follows:

KL1027 Amsterdam [AMS] to London Heathrow [LHR]
BA1408 London Heathrow [LHR] to Manchester [MAN] Arrived at Manchester at 21:40

(Actual) arrival time into Manchester was 21:40 PM. THIS IS A 5 HOUR 20 MINUTE DELAY.

You will note from the reference(s) provided that this was a through booked journey. The return journey consisted of two separate flights, but nevertheless consisted of just one return journey and one return ticket (per passenger).

From the information provided above, you will be able to conclude that my journey was delayed by a total of
5 hours, 20 minutes.
As a result of this unacceptable delay, I have formed the opinion that according to EC Regulation 261/2004, the passengers on this booking are entitled to compensation as follows:

(passenger1) – EURO €600 (Flight distance 3500km+, delay of 4+ hours)
(passenger2) – EURO €600 (Flight distance 3500km+, delay of 4+ hours)

Unfortunately, despite the above information being presented, KLM Customer Service representatives are currently contending that no compensation is payable as KL898 was only delayed by approximately 2 hours. This interpretation of the EC Regulation is incorrect as the entire journey delay must be considered, (i.e. not individual legs).

It is unfortunate that KLM have not yet been able to conclude this matter expeditiously and amicably. It is further regretful that legal proceedings may be required to resolve the issue. However, should KLM re-consider the decision to refuse compensation, and subsequently pay the amount claimed, within 28 days, no further action need be taken.

In the event that you maintain your position and refuse to provide compensation, in the spirit of maintaining a positive approach towards amicably resolving this claim, I am happy to consider any other system of Alternative Dispute Resolution, you may subsequently suggest as an alternative to proceeding directly to court. If this is necessary, please contact me, explaining, and providing me details of, your preferred method of resolution.

If you intend to dispute your liability of this claim, please provide the following information:

1) All information relating to the reason for the delay to KL898. This information should contain technical descriptions. Should the information contain reference(s) to other documents, those documents should also be provided.

As part of this claim, I intend to rely on the right to claim compensation as provided for under EC Regulation 261/2004.
The Courts of England and Wales will have jurisdiction over any subsequent claim.

Should you continue to dispute your liability, and the matter come before a court, an application will be made for costs incurred as a result.

SUMMARY
Total amount claimed: €1200 EURO ( 2 passengers @ €600 EURO each)

Please respond within 28 days or proceedings may be instigated without further reference to you.

In closing, I would draw your attention to section II (4) of the Practice Direction which gives the courts the power to impose sanctions on the parties if they fail to comply with the direction including failing to respond to this letter before claim.

Yours Faithfully,

Smas100

Just a quick email to see if it's worth claiming. My partner and I flew back from New York this weekend. We had booked the flights through KLM but were flying with AirFrance on this return journey. We flew from JFK to Paris CDG and then Paris CDG to Oslo Gardemoen, but have one 6-digit booking code for the entire journey.

The flight was delayed an hour and a half leaving New York (as it was late initially arriving in New York) which resulted in us missing our connecting flight in Paris. We were transferred to another flight with SAS airlines, but this left 4 hours later, resulting in an extended stay in Paris CDG and us arriving in Oslo 4 hours after we were supposed to.

I have read that flights not in or out of the UK may be more difficult to claim for but is this still worth following up?
Thanks in advance

firstclassx

Smas100 wrote: »

Just a quick email to see if it's worth claiming. My partner and I flew back from New York this weekend. We had booked the flights through KLM but were flying with AirFrance on this return journey. We flew from JFK to Paris CDG and then Paris CDG to Oslo Gardemoen, but have one 6-digit booking code for the entire journey.

The flight was delayed an hour and a half leaving New York (as it was late initially arriving in New York) which resulted in us missing our connecting flight in Paris. We were transferred to another flight with SAS airlines, but this left 4 hours later, resulting in an extended stay in Paris CDG and us arriving in Oslo 4 hours after we were supposed to.

I have read that flights not in or out of the UK may be more difficult to claim for but is this still worth following up?
Thanks in advance

You are eligible for compensation as part of a very recent court ruling which clarified that they are liable for the overall delay to the journey, NOT a delay to an individual leg.

Airfrance KLM have a UK office on which they can be served documents.

I'm going to send them a letter before claim (above), before I commence a MCOL.

cjkeeko

blondmark wrote: »

It's always a blessing when the airline is based in another European state because you have the choice of avoiding having a hearing and still win your claim. And who actually wants to go to court?

To do this you complete Form A of the European Small Claims Procedure, hand it in to your local county court and ask them to serve it on KLM in Holland. Tick the box saying no hearing required, and the entire claim is paper-based.

Same claim, same money, no hearing.

BlondMark the European claims court has a limit of euro 2000, we are claiming euro 2400 as there were four of us delayed. Do you know if the limit will still apply if I take it to the local court in Scotland? Advice appreciated.

Caz3121

beverley43 wrote: »

On 7 Sept 2008 I flew Humberside - AMS - Moscow. The ticket was bought on the KLM website and the paperwork received by email had the complete itinerary listed and all flights had KL numbers. The AMS - SVO flight was KL3104. I flew to AMS and discovered that the AMS - SVO leg was code share and would be flown by Aeroflot under flight number SU0230. This flight was delayed 6 hours due to a technical fault. Should I send my claim to KLM or Aeroflot?
Many thanks for any help.

As per the FAQs your dealing is with the operating airline - so Aeroflot

blondmark

cjkeeko wrote: »

BlondMark the European claims court has a limit of euro 2000, we are claiming euro 2400 as there were four of us delayed. Do you know if the limit will still apply if I take it to the local court in Scotland? Advice appreciated.

Yes it will still apply, but you could always claim individually and drop back below the limit.

AHAR

Hi,
I'd appreciate your thought on the situation I experienced with KLM.
After happily being stuck in Japan for a week due to the ash cloud in April 2010, KLM managed to book me onto one of their flights to Amsterdam followed by BA flights to Newcastle via Heathrow (they were no doubt keen to get the backlog of people home however they could).
Unfortunately, before departure from Japan the captain was patched through to the departure lounge and announced they'd found that a panel was missing from one of the engines! After it was repaired he came back on and said they had to get the OK from Boeing regarding the manner of the fix.
Those 2-3 hours of delay meant I missed the BA flight in Amsterdam and was taken to a hotel overnight. The next day I took a KLM flight direct to Newcastle (after they'd taken 40 minutes to figure out that the reason they had one too many people on board was because some bloke meant to be on the Liverpool plane had found their way on board!)

Soooo, after all that palaver, where do I stand in term of the flight delay I experienced on the return journey for reasons unconnected to the ash-cloud?. I eventually got my extra hotel bills from Japan reimbursed by KLM but it wasn't quick or easy, which is what puts me off revisiting to whole sorry saga again.
Thanks

bigblue702

This is my Wife's account of her treatment by Air France/ KLM weekend 22-25th Feb 2013, this email has been sent to them and we await their response .
We will see what they feel is adequate compensation for 3 days of hell at their hands.
*************************************************
Let me explain to you the actual events of Friday 22nd, Saturday 23rd and Sunday 24th February at Douala airport, as a passenger, as I feel it may help you to understand the total trauma many of the passengers experienced. After personally checking in for the flight early at around 8pm, 200+ people sat at a gate, with little if any air conditioning, toilet facilities that did not work, did not have a light and would not flush, for, in my case, around 4 hours, before passengers started to wonder if something was wrong. The flight was due to depart at 11.55 pm and by 11.30 pm there were no crew, no signs of boarding, no announcements, no information.

By using the internet ‘flight tracking’ services, passengers established that there was a delay – initially an hour, then another half an hour, then another hour. By around 2am, a gentleman appeared and spoke to a couple of the passengers, in French, then disappeared. Word spread that the flight was cancelled and that we were to go to the luggage hall, collect our bags and find hotels. This was unofficial, hearsay, and people did not disappear as no-one knew what was happening. Another gentleman then appeared with a scrap of paper, with the phone number 33 505 515 scribbled on it – and proceeded to show it to people, and tell them that they should go to a hotel, and call that number the next day to find out what to do. I asked him who was going to pay for the hotel, he replied ‘I do not know, I’m not Air France’.

The luggage hall was sheer chaos, the carousel jammed, my suitcase handle broke, people were tired, hungry, by this time it was 3am. After collecting luggage I went outside and joined a queue to get taxis to a hotel. At this point I had to make a decision based upon my company policy. I have worked in Douala on more than one occasion and the company I contract to, Schlumberger, have very strict policy on travel around Douala.

Firstly, never take a taxi – always use the company’s vehicles and drivers, regardless of the circumstances. There have been numerous reports of people being mugged, robbed and injured whilst taking taxi journeys – many of the vehicles are totally un roadworthy and dangerous.

Secondly, the airport is in what is classified by Schlumberger as a ‘Red zone’ which means it is a dangerous area, and travel should only be with a company driver and in the company of at least one other person.

Thirdly – policy for travelling after dark is that it is not allowed, let alone at 3am.

Bearing in mind the above, I was not happy about taking a taxi, and called the company and asked them to provide a car. This arrived approximately half an hour later. In the meantime I watched total chaos, as people fought for taxis, did not know where they were going, and still, no member of staff seemed to have any idea what was happening.

My driver arrived and took me to the Akwa Palace hotel, where I had been staying during my trip. He dropped me at the door, and left, and I then discovered they had no rooms available. I had to call the driver to come back, and he took me to Prince De Galles hotel. They also had no rooms available, but having just had a guest check out, could have one ready in half an hour if I would wait, which I agreed to do. I told them I was with Air France, but they already had a list of passengers – they advised me that 5 rooms had been allocated to Business Class passengers earlier, and they had checked in and were in their rooms. Unfortunately as I had not been sent there directly by Air France, I had to agree to pay for the room myself.

At around 4.30 am I eventually got to bed. I got up at 8am to call the airport to find out what time our flight would be leaving, and discovered that the number I had been given did not connect anywhere. I spoke to my husband at home in the UK and asked him to keep trying the number, as I was concerned about the costs to my mobile phone – in fact at a certain point of over spend I knew my provider would block my account, and having expected to be home at this point, did not have the facilities or funds to go online and pay any excess spend from my account.

I had to vacate my room by 12 noon, and in the reception of the hotel, I was lucky enough to bump into one of the business class passengers who told me that they had been told a car would collect them from the airport at 6pm. I therefore decided to do the same and arranged for a company vehicle to take me to the airport at 6pm. I had to spend the next 6 hours sat in the hotel reception. I took lunch in the hotel and explained that I was with the delayed Air France flight, but again, as I was not on the pre arranged list, I had to pay for this myself – I had to change additional money in the hotel into CFA in order to pay for this and drinks I took during the day. It was not safe to venture out of the hotel (I have stayed at this hotel previously) to find alternative food or drink arrangements.

During Saturday, as the phone number provided by the rep at Douala airport did not work, I asked My husband to try and help me from the UK, he made several calls to Air France, details as follows:

• Called Douala, told I should check in at 7 for flight at 11
• Called 0871 number – was told the flight had actually taken off at 2.15am that morning – when disputed this, was told a new plane was being sent for a flight at 11pm, flight number 953A.

I arrived back at the airport around 7pm and went to the check in area. The whole departure hall was full of people trying to check in to the Air France desk and no-one had any further information, so I just joined the nearest queue. I stood in this queue for around 3 hours, in around 40 degree heat. Once at the desk, I was told that I could not check in for my connecting flight (Paris to Birmingham) as I had not visited the Air France ticket office, in the same hall, to secure a ticket for the onward flight. I then had to lose my place, go to the ticket office, re-arrange my itinerary, and re-join the queue. The staff in the Air France ticket office were surly, unhelpful, but better than the check in staff who were ignorant and un co-operative. It appeared that many people also made the mistake of checking in without going to the Air France office to ‘buy’ their connecting flight ticket.

I eventually got back to the check in desk, and checked in after approximately 4 hours. We were told we were boarding at 10pm and flying at 11pm. The passengers for the Saturday flight were also checking in and going to another gate for their flight at 11.55pm.

At the gate, 10pm came and went, no information was available. At 11pm a gentleman wearing a vest stating ‘Chef Avion’ appeared and told people there was a problem the flight and they were still trying to repair it. AT this point several passengers got very upset, the whole experience was terrifying, people were shouting, screaming, swearing. Some people believed that as delayed passengers, we had a right to be on the next available flight, i.e. the Saturday 11.55 flight, and were trying to get into the gate. (I am still trying to find out if that information is correct, as if Air France have breached a contract there, then I will take that matter further).

People were still sitting in the gate area, unable to believe that we could possibly be treated in this way for a second night running. There were no refreshments available (Douala airport does not even have a bar or cafeteria, so it’s not possible to get a drink). During the next hour, two passengers passed out. No official assistance was provided by airport staff until around half an hour later I believe. Both people were taken care of by other passengers, who rallied together to provide drinks and to try and find food.

At around 2am we were told again to get our luggage and go to hotels. This time there was not even a phone number provided. At this time, I had no money, no credit card capacity, and therefore had to ensure that I was on some sort of a list of Air France passengers to ensure that I would have accommodation paid for as I was unable to pay for it myself. I got in the taxi queue and as I got near to the front (around an hour later) the only taxis were the local ones, which I have had strict instructions not to use. The Chef Avion appeared to be attempting to co-ordinate taxis and was putting people in the local, unauthorised taxis, which worried me desperately. I told him that as a woman travelling alone in Douala I felt seriously compromised and frightened to have to do this – he replied to me ‘just go, I can’t do this job, I’m going to collapse’. At this point I realised I had to go in the taxi, as the alternative was to spend the night sitting outside the hotel with the mosquitos, and having run out of malaria tablets that day, that was another concern.

There were already two people in the front of the taxi – the driver and his ‘friend’ I think, three of us were in the back, I virtually had to sit on the lap of another passenger in order to fit in. The boot was wide open to accommodate the suitcases and another passenger had to travel the whole journey holding on to it, to stop it falling out. The windscreen of the taxi was smashed, and the car was something I would have expected to have been in a wreck yard in this country.

When I spoke with your rep on the phone on Monday afternoon, and you told me you have travelled to Douala, and do not find it any more dangerous than e.g. New York, I found this totally insulting and unrealistic. I have travelled to New York on many occasions and have never felt compromised, in danger, or worried about my travel situation – because of Air France I was forced into a situation that filled all those criteria.

Arriving at the hotel, in an area I was not familiar with, we had to be let in through locked gates, as the surrounding slum was obviously not a safe environment. I was initially asked by the receptionist to share a room with another passenger, I refused.

I was allocated a room, which was sufficient. There was no wifi, but there was a safe, and the bed appeared to be clean. The complimentary condoms in the hotel were probably a good indication of the type of establishment it was. As it was late, there was no option to get a drink or anything to eat, even a bottle of water, as the bar was closed.

By next morning (at least this time breakfast and lunch were provided), still no one had any information regarding our flight arrangments, the phone number still did not work. I was in constant touch with my husband in the UK who, on each occasion he spoke to an Air France representative, was given a totally different story.

By 4pm, and following a Facebook comment from Air France on my page advising me that I had been booked on a flight for the next day, Monday, and asking if I had a hotel sorted out, myself and my husband decided we had to make alternative arrangements, as spending yet another night in Douala was not an option for me. I subsequently saw another Facebook post from Air France telling me to check in on Sunday! Apart from the fact that this was too late (as you had put me in a hotel with no wifi so I did not have internet access without risking having my phone cut off by running up data roaming charges), it totally contradicted an earlier post telling me I was flying on Monday.

We then booked a ticket, at our own expense of £636 to get me back to Birmingham via Brussels with Brussels Airlines.

From there I have no idea of what happened to my fellow travellers – I know there were many on the Brussels flight, the business class passengers all seemed to have disappeared, I did hear they had been sent via Casablanca on Air Maroc the previous day – lucky passengers. Whether I would have got out of there on Sunday or Monday is not something we can answer – in fact it would never have happened as I don’t think I was in a fit emotional state to risk turning up at the airport on the off chance of a flight on the Sunday night, knowing I was booked out on Monday – had I been turned back again after going through the whole torturous check in procedure, I don’t think I would have been in a fit state to get myself to a hotel, again.

information given by A/F in UK was as follows:

• 9am, representative – on 0871 number, initially told us that I had to wait until the plane was fixed. Asked for a supervisor as not acceptable – put on hold – then told a plane was being sent from Paris, but no further details like arrival time or flight number, so told to call back in the afternoon
• 12.10 – spoke on 0871 number again, told that ‘Air France are looking into sending a plane’, so nothing had been done in the last three hours. Asked for supervisor – she was in the bathroom, decided to hold. Then told she was on lunch and would call back within the hour
• 1.30 – Supervisor returned call – advised that there was not a new plane coming in, but the flight for Sunday was using a larger plane, to accommodate the Friday passengers, and that I might be able to get a place on it. She confirmed that I was booked on the Monday flight (3 days late)
• Having emailed CEO , received a reply from Heathrow duty manager, confirming the larger plane story for Sunday night.
• Duty Manager then emailed to confirm that I was booked onto a flight on Monday night. Following a phone call, he then offered to rebook me onto a Brussels Airlines flight on Sunday night, however, this was too late as we had already booked it ourselves, at our expense.

You asked me for a breakdown of the costs incurred to myself – I can only actually supply costs which actually have a tangible value (please see list below) – I do not know how you can put a price on the total trauma you caused to myself, my husband, my daughter, and the three days of complete chaos, exhaustion and despair that your organisation inflicted on me. You tell me – I expect you to suggest an amount for this. It will be interesting to know the value Air France places on their customers emotional wellbeing, when it is seriously damaged by a total lack of customer care.

**************************************************
we await their reply

TallArnie

Centipede100 wrote: »

It is for the airline to prove that they informed you of the cancellation in time. Article 5.4 of the Reg states:

4. The burden of proof concerning the questions as to whether and when the passenger has been informed of the cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air carrier.

If you were delayed in arriving at your final destination by 3 hours or more, then you are entitled to compensation as provided by the Reg.

KLM tells me they informed me by email 5 months before departure to one of my correct email addresses. However, I don't recall ever seeing or acknowledging it. It may have gone into my spam folder or been blocked, who knows. At the same time, I can understand it cannot be KLM's responsibility to make sure people read their emails. However, I am surprised that a company like KLM doesn't seem to ask for any confirmation of the rescheduling. Even bad-boy Ryanair does that!

So the question is: if KLM must prove that they informed me, does it mean they have to prove that they sent me an email, or does it mean they have to prove that I have read the email (e.g. by confirmation)?

Ich_2

So the question is: if KLM must prove that they informed me, does it mean they have to prove that they sent me an email, or does it mean they have to prove that I have read the email (e.g. by confirmation)?

I would suggest that they only have to prove they sent you the email