Should I pay a 'charge notice' for parking in my own parking space?!

pogofish

The_White_Horse wrote: »

The management company are not mentioned on the notice. Surely it's not in their interest to help a company of questionable legitimacy fine somebody for parking in a space they themselves own?!

IME, many managing agents /owners are as conned by PPCs as their victims - we quite often see an owner/operator come on here who has been misled to believe that their PPC issues fully legal tickets and successfully enforces every one! :eek: .

PPCs also get contracts for car parks by providing other management/maintenance services and yes, the MAs/Owners often get a kickback from any paid tickets. Although its often an ex-gratia payment so there is no direct contractural link between the firms.

prowla

A PCN for parking your own car in your own parking space - that's a good one!

(The only thing in favour of the PPC is that the person they have doing the rounds is not paid to think.)

I would have a go at the management company though.

Mr_Angry123

File it in the bin!!!

The_Slithy_Tove

The_White_Horse wrote: »

I own a flat (with a 100 year lease) which has a private car park with a space allocated for each flat.

The rest of my response will be based on the assumption, therefore, that you OWN the specific parking space, as set out in your lease.

The_White_Horse wrote: »

Every year, I am issued with a permit by the property management company that runs the cleaning, gardening, parking, etc.

...

I own not only the flat, but also the parking space itself, so it seems pretty unlikely to me that they've got any right to demand £65/£130 from me!

Absolutely right! Ask yourself, how is it that a third party is trying to impose conditions on you (e.g. permit) to park on your own land, and then having the cheek to attempt to extort money from you for not doing so? They have as much right to insist you use a yellow toothbrush in your own bathroom, and then check up on you and charge you if you are not.

The_White_Horse wrote: »

...and really don't want to have to pay!

You are kidding, right?

The_White_Horse wrote: »

The management company are not mentioned on the notice. Surely it's not in their interest to help a company of questionable legitimacy fine somebody for parking in a space they themselves own?!

There's the rub. Management companies are both ignorant and greedy. They are meant to be responsible for managing the common areas, e.g. shared parking. Your space is not a common area. They do not have any right to impose a permit scheme on your private parking space. You need to tell them this in no uncertain terms (make sure you speak to someone with some authority). Tell them also that they are responsible for the actions of their agent (the parking company). that the parking company are committing an act of trespass on your property whenever they attach one of their notices to your car, and they must cease doing so forthwith, or you will commence legal procedings agains them (and thus agains the management company). You also withdraw from any permit system they think they can impose.

The "greedy" bit comes from the kick-backs they sometimes get from paid tickets.

pogofish wrote: »

Nope, it wouldn't change a thing - They (or more correctly the landowner/agent) can only claim for actual losses, not impose any kind of penalty. It might affect the tone of any communication you have with the managing agent though

The landowner being you (White Horse) - by virtue of the lease. Therefore any talk of suing is plain daft. You can't sue yourself. There is no way the parking company can take out legal procedings.

Make sure all your neighbours know this is a complete scam. If any have foolishly paid any tickets, then they could attempt to sue for it back - uphill struggle, even though they'd have a good case.

In short, don't bother communicating with the parking company. Go in hard with the managemnent company, with a view to getting the whole scheme thrown out.

27col

If it is your own, paid for, parking space, then how can anyone possibly reckon that they have the authority to permit you, or indeed, deny you, the right to park in it.
Ignore the whole thing.

ManxRed

This constitutes trespass, and in trepass cases only the landowner can bring a legal claim against the trespasser.

That would be you on both counts.

Unless you feel like sueing yourself I would ignore this rubbish you have been given.

Coupon-mad

spacey2012 wrote: »

All Lack of AOS membership does is not give them electronic access.
Anyone can request your details from DVLA by paper request for £2.50 if they have a genuine reason.

No, they can't if they are a Parking Company. It's AOS or nothing.

Coupon-mad

The_White_Horse wrote: »

The management company are not mentioned on the notice. Surely it's not in their interest to help a company of questionable legitimacy fine somebody for parking in a space they themselves own?!

The management company have allowed this scumbag company to operate there and 'deal with the permits', so the Management company are just as liable for this harassment and trespass of your space/car as the PPC is. Particularly if your lease grants YOU exclusive rights to the bay and has some paragraph about your right to 'peaceful enjoyment' of your property' etc. If so then you know you could sue the Management company for damages for allowing this - they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agent even if no money changes hands. You don't need a permit you know - you and your neighbours do not have to put up with this scheme imposed on you.

Certainly ignore the fake PCN. As I just posted, a parking company cannot get DVLA data unless they are part of the AOS scheme with acccess enabled by the DVLA. So a quick email to the DVLA to ask them would put your mind at rest, send them a copy of the fake PCN and ask if this parking company can or can't get your data:

[EMAIL="FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk"]FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL]

And your second point in bold is looking at this in a pretty naive way but you've not come across this before and we have, loads of threads here but also loads like yours on pepipoo (let this load and read a few of the results of threads by poeple in your shoes!):

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=+site%3Aforums.pepipoo.com+private+ticket+flat+ignore+parking+in+own+bay

Management companies allow a PPC on site usually because they think it's a good idea at the time. They may have been persuaded by a slick spiel from the PPC that they can 'patrol your parking bays for free' (and some even give a kickback from each fake ticket paid). It's like a protection racket in reality though and the PPC have ZERO interest in caring about who gets these fake PCNs.

SO in summary, ignore the fake PCN but find out from the DVLA up front now whether this firm can get your data and send you letters. Forewarned is forearmed and if the DVLA say 'no' and then you do get letters, you will have a serious complaint to make about an ICO data breach by the DVLA!

You still don't pay though even if you get a fake PCN from an AOS member firm. Only ever take seriously a real parking ticket from the POlice, Council,. TFL or (rarely) a Train Operating company - all of which would have the word 'penalty' in the title which shows it's a real one.

Sirdan

spacey2012 wrote: »

All Lack of AOS membership does is not give them electronic access.
Anyone can request your details from DVLA by paper request for £2.50 if they have a genuine reason.

Wrong on the DVLA access point because , the BPA says :-

"Anyone involved in any form of off-street enforcement, as detailed above, and wishing to join the BPA must join the Approved Operator Scheme."

Therefore if they are not in the AOS they are not in the BPA and the DVLA rules say :-

"

Guarding against data misuse
In 2006 we introduced strict new measures to protect vehicle keepers against misuse of their details...
.... All car parking companies must be a member of an Accredited Trade Association (ATA) which has a mandatory code of practice and be fully compliant with the code of practice.

DVLA has procedures in place to enable those dealing with requests to check whether a company is a member of an ATA. To date, the only ATA for the parking industry is the British Parking Association (BPA). Information on their code of practice can be found on their website at www.britishparking.co.uk"

So no AOS ..no DVLA data for the PPC. (at least not legally)

Stroma

The_White_Horse wrote: »

I've checked the "List of Approved Operator Scheme Members" and neither the trading name "Ace Security Services" nor the company name "Pace Recovery and Storage Limited" appears on the list. IS this the sort of thing I can just ignore? I'd rather send them an email saying I'm not paying the fine, but this seems to be contrary to the usual advice on this subject!

All help and advice would be much appreciated

If they are not on the AOS then they cannot get your details from the dvla, ignore the scammers.!