Should I pay a 'charge notice' for parking in my own parking space?!

The_White_Horse_2

I own a flat (with a 100 year lease) which has a private car park with a space allocated for each flat. Every year, I am issued with a permit by the property management company that runs the cleaning, gardening, parking, etc.

I was displaying the permit (which was due to expire 6 days later) in the windscreen next to my road tax disc a week or so ago when parked in my space and a group called "Ace Security Services" issued me with a "Charge Notice" for having an "Invalid Permit".

There are prominent signs throughout the car park telling drivers that they cannot park without a permit and that "Ace Security Services" are responsible for issuing fines related to this. But I had a permit clearly visible (right next to where they left the notice, in fact).

The only reason I can see why they might have decided my permit is invalid is that the "Number" line at the bottom of my permit is blank. My car registration number is on the line above, so I presume this number is for the space that I have been allocated.

I own not only the flat, but also the parking space itself, so it seems pretty unlikely to me that they've got any right to demand £65/£130 from me! But I share ownership of the car (and the flat) with my brother, so I'd rather not receive a series of threatening letters if I ignore the notice (and really don't want to have to pay!).

I've checked the "List of Approved Operator Scheme Members" and neither the trading name "Ace Security Services" nor the company name "Pace Recovery and Storage Limited" appears on the list. IS this the sort of thing I can just ignore? I'd rather send them an email saying I'm not paying the fine, but this seems to be contrary to the usual advice on this subject!

All help and advice would be much appreciated

trisontana

Simple, just ignore. And it's not a FINE!

pogofish

No, you should not pay these scammers. In fact you should give your managing agent a rocket for letting these predators operate in the first place.

Also, as they seem not to be AOS members, there should be no way they can get your details from the DVLA, so it could be quite a serious data protection issue if you start getting letters off them.

And as they are not in AOS, the POPLA route is not open to them/you, so your only serious option is to ignore - "Appealing" only serves to prolong the efforts to scam money out of you as PPCs tend to assume you are taking them seriously.

And lastly, as you own your space, you are quite within your rights to instruct the managing agent to stop them from operating on it in future - so no more tickets!

spacey2012

Do you have the lease ?
Does it mention the parking space and if so what does it say.

The_White_Horse_2

spacey2012 wrote: »

Do you have the lease ?
Does it mention the parking space and if so what does it say.

It's filed away somewhere at my brother's new place but it would be a bit of a hassle. What could it possibly say that would give Ace Security Services a right to the money?

pogofish

The_White_Horse wrote: »

It's filed away somewhere at my brother's new place but it would be a bit of a hassle. What could it possibly say that would give Ace Security Services a right to the money?

Nope, it wouldn't change a thing - They (or more correctly the landowner/agent) can only claim for actual losses, not impose any kind of penalty. It might affect the tone of any communication you have with the managing agent though

spacey2012

The_White_Horse wrote: »

It's filed away somewhere at my brother's new place but it would be a bit of a hassle. What could it possibly say that would give Ace Security Services a right to the money?

I was thinking more along the lines of making you some money.
Get the lease !
You are going to need it at hand.
The management company will be on a cut, they will get nasty if you do not pay.
Find the lease, photocopy it and look at what it says as regard to the parking space.

The_White_Horse_2

pogofish wrote: »

Also, as they seem not to be AOS members, there should be no way they can get your details from the DVLA, so it could be quite a serious data protection issue if you start getting letters off them.

The reverse of the slip says "your vehicle licensing details may be requested from the DVLA and a formal demand sent to the registered keeper". A couple more things 'may' happen besides that, apparently! I'm guessing there's a reason they're not using the word 'will'?!

Would it be clear if they were AOS members? I have no reason as yet to believe they are.

pogofish wrote: »

And as they are not in AOS, the POPLA route is not open to them/you, so your only serious option is to ignore - "Appealing" only serves to prolong the efforts to scam money out of you as PPCs tend to assume you are taking them seriously.

So is keeping quiet the best option because they have no means of contacting me (since they don't know where I live/how to contact me)? I really do fancy telling them to stop ticketing residents' cars.

pogofish wrote: »

And lastly, as you own your space, you are quite within your rights to instruct the managing agent to stop them from operating on it in future - so no more tickets!

I'd have to persuade the other residents I suppose. Might not be too difficult.

The_White_Horse_2

spacey2012 wrote: »

I was thinking more along the lines of making you some money.
Get the lease !
You are going to need it at hand.
The management company will be on a cut, they will get nasty if you do not pay.
Find the lease, photocopy it and look at what it says as regard to the parking space.

The management company are not mentioned on the notice. Surely it's not in their interest to help a company of questionable legitimacy fine somebody for parking in a space they themselves own?!

spacey2012

All Lack of AOS membership does is not give them electronic access.
Anyone can request your details from DVLA by paper request for £2.50 if they have a genuine reason.
Which as they are claiming you committed trespass against land owned by others (possibly leased) to you, I can not reiterate how important it is you obtain the lease, ensure it is in your name and what it states in regard to the parking space and use of it.
The point in regard to the upper tax tribunal was a incorrect contractual issue, the agents were deemed not to have correct contractual permission to act on behalf of land owners, it does not prevent agents acting on behalf of landowners with the correct contractual obligations in place.
There is a small possibility they could bring a court case, it does happen, rare, but it can.
As you are attached to this space, you need to get your powder dry, your cannons loaded and ready.
The lease is your ammo.

pogofish

The_White_Horse wrote: »

The reverse of the slip says "your vehicle licensing details may be requested from the DVLA and a formal demand sent to the registered keeper". A couple more things 'may' happen besides that, apparently! I'm guessing there's a reason they're not using the word 'will'?!

Would it be clear if they were AOS members? I have no reason as yet to believe they are.



So is keeping quiet the best option because they have no means of contacting me (since they don't know where I live/how to contact me)? I really do fancy telling them to stop ticketing residents' cars.



I'd have to persuade the other residents I suppose. Might not be too difficult.

A common mistake amongst new posters is assuming that PPCs are reasonable and honest operators - I'm afraid most are shonky as anything and not averse to lying about everything! I would tend to assume that's a scare tactic!

Its not always easy to tell if a PPC is a member of AOS or not - The BPA seem to be rather tardy about updating the list on their website. I suppose you could email the DVLA to see if they know of the firm - I would presume they have an up to date list and they do seem to have become responsive to enquiries since Oct 1st. The guy to contact is listed on quite a few other threads here - I can't remember his details OTOH but maybe someone will help-out?

It would however be very interesting to know if they do follow-up because if they are not AOS memners, they should be barred from getting details, which means they are either acting in consort with an AOS member (wrong!) or obtaining your details by other means (very wrong!) and that itself could be grounds for other action.

Yes, pretty much - Ignoring is your best option, unless POPLA is open to you and you want to cost them a bit of money. You pay nothing for a POPLA appeal but the PPC pays somewhere approaching thirty quid. Again, a POPLA result is not binding on you, so if they reject your appeal, you can still ignore that too.

If your space is covered by your lease, you are as entitled to "quiet enjoyment" of it in the same way as your flat, so you don't need to involve other residents and can instruct the managing agent for your space alone. If its not covered, then yes you would need to enlist support of other residents to have them change their methods/install a barrier etc - there are ways to manage parking that don't involve these predators.