Is there a place for private parking enforcement?

Driver8

s555 wrote: »

Is this a class thing then? I can afford the charges, and you cannot?

Cost of motoring, I'm afraid. That's why they have busses.

Who mentioned class? Don't twist things.

For your information i drive a 2L SE VW Passat and in the top 16% of this countries earners. Class does not come into it.

What does come into it is how forums such as these are putting a stranglehold on your so called "businesses" solely set up to rip people off who were none the wiser.

The boots on the other foot, if it wasn't, PPC trolls wouldn't come on here lying.

A private person OR private company cannot "fine" anyone whatsoever. Period.

I say again, the PPC industry is about to collapse, and so it should. Descicable people going to work each day to con, lie and cheat their fellow citizens. The type of people 60 year ago would have been shutting cattle truck doors on trains. That's what they are like with their mindset.

Half_way

s555 wrote: »

Sorry, I meant if there were no parking limits, it would be full. There are parking limits, so instead the commuters fill the ten pound a day station carpark next to it.

You clearly live in some underpopulated part of the world, because where I live, people abandoning cars wherever they see fit is a daily nuisance. That is what it has to do with me.

I said right at the start that I came to this part of the forum because I got one of these tickets. I am actually coming round to the idea of paying it after a few people on here have made it obvious that all they are interested in, or prepared to talk about, is a situation where they can do whatever they like, when they like and "big business" will pick up the tab - or add it to the bill in some discreet way, more likely.

If you are so worried about these people, stop parking in their car parks! Park somewhere else and walk. Get the bus. But of course, you won't, because you prefer to moan about it!

Ive seen a few car parks at supermarkets near busy comuter stations - not for a long while mind you.
One had a system where you showed someone your till receipt to get out, and at another you had to put an orange plastic token ( that you obtained form the checkout) into a slot - both barier controlled, both before the days of private parking companies.
Strangley enough there were plenty of spaes, its also worth noting that total anarchy and chaos was not evident in the car parks - people just parked and shopped.

s555

Driver8 wrote: »

Who mentioned class? Don't twist things.

For your information i drive a 2L SE VW Passat and in the top 16% of this countries earners. Class does not come into it.

What does come into it is how forums such as these are putting a stranglehold on your so called "businesses" solely set up to rip people off who were none the wiser.

The boots on the other foot, if it wasn't, PPC trolls wouldn't come on here lying.

A private person OR private company cannot "fine" anyone whatsoever. Period.

I say again, the PPC industry is about to collapse, and so it should. Descicable people going to work each day to con, lie and cheat their fellow citizens. The type of people 60 year ago would have been shutting cattle truck doors on trains. That's what they are like with their mindset.

Right. Stop banging on about fines. I already admitted I used the word incorrectly. I meant penalty, and you know that.

According to Wikipedia, there are 23 TOCs, all empowered to issue penalties. These companies gained that right through a competitive, commercial, bidding process. It was not decreed by the local council.

What else did you mean by 'disgruntled of Tunbridge Wells' then?

s555

Half_way wrote: »

Ive seen a few car parks at supermarkets near busy comuter stations - not for a long while mind you.
One had a system where you showed someone your till receipt to get out, and at another you had to put an orange plastic token ( that you obtained form the checkout) into a slot - both barier controlled, both before the days of private parking companies.
Strangley enough there were plenty of spaes, its also worth noting that total anarchy and chaos was not evident in the car parks - people just parked and shopped.

I think these systems can work, but do you put a time limit on it?
I could park there all day, pop in to the on site supermarket on the way home to buy a pack of smokes, which I wanted anyway, and get my ticket stamped, so have effectively parked there all day for free.

So, you put a time limit on. But then, what do you charge for an overstay? It has to be at least the same price as the actual station car park. Probably much more, because you don't actually want those people parking there. How do you collect that money. Who empties the machines? You now have to pay someone to do a job of keeping your means of stopping "imposters" running.

So now you are looking at something that seems punitive. The station car park is £3 per hour or £10 all day.

Your car park is free for three hours or £15 for three hours and one minute.

And what about those people who come back to their car when the supermarket is closed. You have a choice, leave the gate open or have someone on call to come open it if it doesn't work, or the machine is broken.

This is not a simple problem to solve.

Half_way

The method I mentioned pay or show ticket/put token in slot etc on exit isnt some new fangled proposition that can work, it was an old system that did work.

As for the place being closed and the gate locked shut, if your unfortunate/stupid to leave your car in a gated car park after hours then its a case of coming back the next day to fetch it, as long as you can drive off freeley again during opening hours the next day.

I have done this to a vehicle left in a car park, and left a hand written note under the wiper balde, the car park has signs up stating that it would be locked after a certain time,( and open again the next morning) or when the premises were not in use.

ManxRed

s555 wrote: »

I was only challenged to find one example, so unless you rubbish them all, you loose!

You started acting the pr*ck before I pulled you up on the spelling.

Like winning a debate hinges on being able to rubbish every one of your scattergun theories on who can issue a fine/penalty and who can't?

So, it all boils down to your concerns over a local railway car park, in which you advocate a country wide issuing of fines on all private car parks in order to solve a problem at one of them. I'm sorry, but that's daft. Should the police arrest every 18 year old kid in Britain who wears a hoodie and lock them up because my neighbour got mugged by one of them?

No, your interest - in my opinion - goes deeper than that. No one has ever advocated on here that anyone can do what they like whenever they like when it comes to private car parks, the landowner is entitled to charge for services, and those charges should be paid, its the illegal 'fines' we object to, and well you know it.

You've done nothing but twist people's arguments to try and make it look like you are some kind of caped crusader standing up to the big nasty 'hey everyone, you should abuse private car parks whenever you like' baddies on here.

In actuality you (claim) you have a gripe with a few inconsiderate people filling up a local railway car park. Sorry, I don't buy it, your agenda is much bigger than that.

grant_uk

Driver8 wrote: »

The type of people 60 year ago would have been shutting cattle truck doors on trains. That's what they are like with their mindset.

Blimey - I never thought I'd get the chance to invoke Godwin on a parking thread... :rotfl:

s555

ManxRed wrote: »

You started acting the pr*ck before I pulled you up on the spelling.

Like winning a debate hinges on being able to rubbish every one of your scattergun theories on who can issue a fine/penalty and who can't?

So, it all boils down to your concerns over a local railway car park, in which you advocate a country wide issuing of fines on all private car parks in order to solve a problem at one of them. I'm sorry, but that's daft. Should the police arrest every 18 year old kid in Britain who wears a hoodie and lock them up because my neighbour got mugged by one of them?

No, your interest - in my opinion - goes deeper than that. No one has ever advocated on here that anyone can do what they like whenever they like when it comes to private car parks, the landowner is entitled to charge for services, and those charges should be paid, its the illegal 'fines' we object to, and well you know it.

You've done nothing but twist people's arguments to try and make it look like you are some kind of caped crusader standing up to the big nasty 'hey everyone, you should abuse private car parks whenever you like' baddies on here.

In actuality you (claim) you have a gripe with a few inconsiderate people filling up a local railway car park. Sorry, I don't buy it, your agenda is much bigger than that.

I asked if there was a place for private enforcement. I did not suggest it should be applied everywhere.

In the same way, there is a place for punishment of 18 year old muggers, but that does not mean we lock them all up without due process and without considering the facts.

I don't get your argument, to be honest. So, to put it in to a wider context, let's imagine the following:

A traditional pay and display car park. No barrier, just a ticket machine.

I decide, after reading a few threads on here, that I couldn't be bothered to pay. I probably wont get caught and even if I do, it is unlikely anything will come of it.

How do you suggest we deal with a situation like that? It would seem that in your world, the owner of the car park would send you a letter asking you nicely for some money. But never more than it would have cost you had you put the money in the machine. The car park owner has to suck up the costs of sending you that letter.

Of course, in your world, you would ignore the letter. Laugh at it in fact. So along will come a second letter, again asking you for the same sum of money and again ignoring the fact that it has cost someone to send that letter (not just the postage).

So they take legal proceedings and in your world they would not be allowed to claim anything other than the original unpaid parking. They could not claim damages to cover the fact they had to pay someone to prepare the case and possibly attend court.

In your world, they may or may not win the case, but the worst case scenario is that you lose but pay no more than you should have put in the parking machine in the first place. Hardly a deterrent against not paying in the first place.

Sound ridiculous? Yes. So where is the middle ground? You tell me.

PS: if you are after conspiracy theories, you should look in my shed. I've got the Elvis impersonating alien that shot JFK in there. But that would be all you find, you wont find any affiliation with a parking company.

s555

PPS: Actually, don't look in my shed. Lord Lucan is hiding in there.

ManxRed

s555 wrote: »

I asked if there was a place for private enforcement. I did not suggest it should be applied everywhere.

In the same way, there is a place for punishment of 18 year old muggers, but that does not mean we lock them all up without due process and without considering the facts.

I don't get your argument, to be honest. So, to put it in to a wider context, let's imagine the following:

A traditional pay and display car park. No barrier, just a ticket machine.

I decide, after reading a few threads on here, that I couldn't be bothered to pay. I probably wont get caught and even if I do, it is unlikely anything will come of it.

How do you suggest we deal with a situation like that? It would seem that in your world, the owner of the car park would send you a letter asking you nicely for some money. But never more than it would have cost you had you put the money in the machine. The car park owner has to suck up the costs of sending you that letter.

Of course, in your world, you would ignore the letter. Laugh at it in fact. So along will come a second letter, again asking you for the same sum of money and again ignoring the fact that it has cost someone to send that letter (not just the postage).

So they take legal proceedings and in your world they would not be allowed to claim anything other than the original unpaid parking. They could not claim damages to cover the fact they had to pay someone to prepare the case and possibly attend court.

In your world, they may or may not win the case, but the worst case scenario is that you lose but pay no more than you should have put in the parking machine in the first place. Hardly a deterrent against not paying in the first place.

Sound ridiculous? Yes. So where is the middle ground? You tell me.

PS: if you are after conspiracy theories, you should look in my shed. I've got the Elvis impersonating alien that shot JFK in there. But that would be all you find, you wont find any affiliation with a parking company.

Let's take this one at a time. If a private car park operator chooses to operate a car park with no barrier and just pay and display then they need to accept that there may be a small proportion of abuse and accept this. In the same way any business will make a provision for bad debt in its accounts.

I do not, and have never, condoned taking the p*ss out of a P&D car park or any other car park, so 'in my world' I would NOT do this, nor laugh at any follow up letters. Not a lot of people on here condone depriving landowners of genuine service charges for parking. You'll struggle to find posts on here doing this, but feel free to have a go. So that's out the window.

The legal proceedings, in which they cannot claim for more than the damages incurred isn't in 'my world' its the real world, so forget that argument.

Small claims are designed so that legal people are generally not required to prepare cases, so there shouldn't in theory be many additional costs. The small claims court system is designed to enable the common man to bring appropriate claims without resorting to enormous legal costs. This principle has worked for years. There would be few additional costs of bringing a claim, but as I say any sensible company - knowing that the abuse may be relatively insignificant - might just write this off.

I agree there is little deterrent, perhaps that's all we agree on.

So, is there a place for private parking enforcement?

My answer is yes, but not in the hands of profit making organisations, it should be set up similar to council patrolled schemes on council land, possibly enforced by the council too.

I see no place in modern society for PPCs in any shape or form.

I hope I've made that clear, but I suspect more smart alec comments and assumptions are on the way...