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Why are savings rates on the floor?

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  • gadgetmind wrote: »
    Perhaps not, but it's something we should be trying to move towards rather than backing away from.

    perhaps you could explain why you think unfettered immigration is so good? you really think that letting millions of people in with few skills is good for the UK?

    i personally think the australian points based system is the best immigration system...
  • gadgetmind
    gadgetmind Posts: 11,130 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    perhaps you could explain why you think unfettered immigration is so good? you really think that letting millions of people in with few skills is good for the UK?

    I said it was something that we (as a race) should move towards not something we should do instantly or overnight.

    We live on a planet that's mostly ocean. Some bits of land stick up out of this ocean. People live on the sticky uppy bits. Why should we judge people based on which bit they were born on and/or dictate which other bits they can live on?

    Changing our ways is going to be a long journey, so please can we try not to take too many steps backwards?
    I am not a financial adviser and neither do I play one on television. I might occasionally give bad advice but at least it's free.

    Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them.
  • gadgetmind wrote: »
    I said it was something that we (as a race) should move towards not something we should do instantly or overnight.

    We live on a planet that's mostly ocean. Some bits of land stick up out of this ocean. People live on the sticky uppy bits. Why should we judge people based on which bit they were born on and/or dictate which other bits they can live on?

    Changing our ways is going to be a long journey, so please can we try not to take too many steps backwards?

    because a lot of people hate the decadent western way of life and want to kill westerners?
  • bigadaj
    bigadaj Posts: 11,531 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    because a lot of people hate the decadent western way of life and want to kill westerners?

    Well there are a lot more people from the poor south and radical bits of Asia getting killed by westerners than vice versa but why spoil a good story. My reckoning is that for every white person killed there are three to four orders of magnitude of people killed by western forces but that's a distraction.

    I'm interested by gadgets views as open borders are rarely good for the majority. There is no example of where open borders have been good for the majority of people, slow expansion of currency areas and free trade can be good, but a lack of control leads to many problems.

    The us is the closest thing we have, but all based on the fallacy that it is actually restrictive, if people are illegal then they are obvious cheap labour.unless you are part of a very narrow and privileged elite then uncontrolled flows of people are very bad, without a social net they may even be bad for the very highest as social disorder can lead to increased security costs etc
  • gadgetmind
    gadgetmind Posts: 11,130 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    bigadaj wrote: »
    I'm interested by gadgets views as open borders are rarely good for the majority.

    And closed borders are never good for anyone.

    Our freedoms (no matter where born, no matter what skin colour) must keep on increasing. Countries that fight this will fail,
    I am not a financial adviser and neither do I play one on television. I might occasionally give bad advice but at least it's free.

    Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them.
  • bigadaj
    bigadaj Posts: 11,531 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    gadgetmind wrote: »
    And closed borders are never good for anyone.

    Our freedoms (no matter where born, no matter what skin colour) must keep on increasing. Countries that fight this will fail,

    Yes, but communism was a fantastic idea in theory, in practice not so good.

    Lack of control on immigration are actually fairly similar to communism, a fantastic idea in principle but the fallibiliies and weaknesses of humans create the issue.

    It's interesting how such things chage over the years, when communism was in place they put barriers up to keep their people in, now its the capitalist west that creates the barriers to keep the poor and mobile out.
  • bigadaj wrote: »
    Well there are a lot more people from the poor south and radical bits of Asia getting killed by westerners than vice versa but why spoil a good story. My reckoning is that for every white person killed there are three to four orders of magnitude of people killed by western forces but that's a distraction.

    i agree with what you write. but places like afghanistan have had tribal wars since time began, saddam didn't have a problem killing his own people, and as for the civil wars like rwanda....

    i'd imagine that "westerners" actually kill a very small % of the people killed in wars/ political violence each year. of course it would be good if there was no deaths at all, however i see no easy way to achieve this...
  • gadgetmind wrote: »
    And closed borders are never good for anyone.

    Our freedoms (no matter where born, no matter what skin colour) must keep on increasing. Countries that fight this will fail,

    so if you were in charge of UK immigration you'd be happy letting everyone in? you honestly don't think keeping out terrorists etc is "good" for you?

    when you look at the riots in stockholm it has to make you question if mass immigration is a good idea... if one of the world's most liberal countries, with a generous welfare system, has problems with an immigrant "underclass" it suggests that every country will have a problem.
  • srcandas
    srcandas Posts: 1,241 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 25 May 2013 at 8:32AM
    Not sure looking at extremes - no borders or no movement is useful.

    If we look at an area with absolutely no limitations then we see the issues very clearly. Take Spain. The people saw the cities, especially Barcelona and it's factories as the place to be. So the young moved in large numbers (70s/80s). The agriculture collapsed and now facilities and skills have been lost. Now as the factories suffer the most qualified young move on to Germany and the like.

    What is left is a failed state.

    You can pick the example apart if you like but I think it raises some important questions. Before we have open movement we need a world plan that works. And for sure we do not have one.

    But I'm with Gadget in the sense it is the right long term direction :)
    I believe past performance is a good guide to future performance :beer:
  • brewerdave
    brewerdave Posts: 8,712 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Mods -please move the last handful of posts to somewhere more appropriate?
    No idea what they have got to do with p*ss poor savings rates at the mo'
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