should colleagues with kids get preference for holidays?

Almo

BobQ wrote: »

I have never been in the situation of having to negotiate with colleagues or managers over when to take leave so I have no axe to grind here. As you say most people seem to be able to sort it out amongst themselves but clearly its much easier in some industries than others. In some ways I think that if you choose to work in one of those industries as a parent you should accept that you may not be able to get leave when you want it.

That said if you work in an organisation where these things are decided on the whims of your manager, I think that taking the attitude that those with children should be given no special consideration is selfish. What matters in my view is whether children get to spend time with their parents. Equal opportunity is a fine principle but what about the opportunities of the children?

Honestly? I don't know about the opportunities of the children. It's a good question and I do understand your perspective.

As Firefox alluded to earlier, if both parents are working to afford more than the basic necessities then I suppose I think they forfeited the right to claim special treatment at work based on the fact that they have children. If the desire to spend time with their children was surpassed by the desire to have certain material things, then they should accept all that comes with that.

Now, that said, I fully support a parent's right to choose to work and I also recognise that for many many families it is not a choice but rather a necessity to have both parents working. I don't want to come across as some kind of militant here and I'm not suggesting that families where two parents work are only doing so for material reasons and don't care about their kids - I really am not.

Where it is a necessity that both parents (or of course in the case of single parent families, the parent) work your question becomes more relevant (IMHO). Certainly it's desirable that a child gets to spend quality time with their parent(s) but I don't think it's necessarily any more desirable than a host of other scenarios, including an adult child (the employee) spending time with their very sick parent, which is a scenario that has arisen on this thread.

By mandating that parents get priority you are effectively saying that it is more important that a parent is with their child every August 5th (for example) than someone celebrating an important anniverary/going on a once in a lifetime holiday/any other one off event, which also happens to fall on August 5th. Yes, one would hope that if this situation were to arise the parent would have the grace to make alternative arrangements for one year and I'm sure that in most cases that's exactly what would happen, but if a policy of parents first is introduced then there is opportunity for parents to abuse it.

Another example - a parent asks for Christmas off, because it's baby's first Christmas. Because they are a parent, they get approved over their non-parent colleague who wanted to spend Christmas with their 7 year old nephew. Is the parent of the baby asking for Christmas off for the child's sake or for their own sake? I'd suggest it's for their own sake, since the child won't remember it.

This is a long and probably rambling post but I wanted to fully explain my reasoning. You asked a good question.

I would put this to you in return: would it be OK to pass over a parent for a promotion on the basis that it would mean them spending more time away from their children (perhaps through travel, for example)? I don't think it would be, for the record.

*Beki*

poppy_f1 wrote: »

the olympics happened during the school holidays this year - the commonwealth games will happen in glasgow during the school holidays


just because its the main holiday time doesnt mean people will take their main holiday (personally i prefer may/june and sept for that) but there are usually some kind of other events on at that time that people may want to attend and have time off work

I agree with this- there are a huge amount of music festivals throughout the summer which people would want to book time off for.

Added to the fact that maybe people would like be optimistic and just take their summer holiday when it may (possibly) be summery weather in the UK?!

jellyhead

poppy_f1 wrote: »

also the parents who moan about needing the holidays off all the time and turns out their children are mid teenagers who are more than capable of looking after themselves, i had a bit of a fight a few years back whos son was 16 and she claimed she needed the holidays off

Maybe she wanted to stop her home being used as the 'party house' for all the other teens?

Just because a teenager can be left home alone all day every day doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea. Maybe her 16 year old had special needs? Maybe they had a health problem or were depressed?

I don't think parents should necessarily get priority but I can see plenty of reasons for not leaving a teenager to their own devices every day.

jellyhead

Nicki wrote: »

In all circumstances?

Employee A has two primary school aged children and has asked for 2 weeks off over the Easter holidays as she does not have access to any form of childcare and she and her husband cover school holidays between them by taking the whole of their annual leave separately.

Employee B who has no children wants to go skiing with a group of friends over the same two weeks.

Employee B will undoubtedly be very upset if her request is declined, but as an employer, if you refuse Employee A it is likely that she will have little option but to resign and find a job which will enable her fit in her work round her childcare commitments, whereas if you refuse Employee B she will be upset and demotivated for a while, but the chances of losing her is less. So assuming that you don't want to lose either of them, isn't there a business case in circumstances such as this to accomodate the parent over the non parent, irrespective of your personal preference on the matter?

There are what, 13 weeks holiday? Not sure if that includes the staff training days or not. Plus, what about when the child is ill, surely the parent taking days off to look after a sick child comes out of their annual leave?

If employee A has no family or friends to help out with childcare and is either unable or unwilling to pay a nursery or childminder then why take the job?

My friend was in employee A's situation and she just had to bite the bullet and find a childcare club that charged £30 a day plus £30 registration fee for the easter holidays.

Mad-Frog

BobQ wrote: »

I have never been in the situation of having to negotiate with colleagues or managers over when to take leave so I have no axe to grind here. As you say most people seem to be able to sort it out amongst themselves but clearly its much easier in some industries than others. In some ways I think that if you choose to work in one of those industries as a parent you should accept that you may not be able to get leave when you want it.

That said if you work in an organisation where these things are decided on the whims of your manager, I think that taking the attitude that those with children should be given no special consideration is selfish. What matters in my view is whether children get to spend time with their parents. Equal opportunity is a fine principle but what about the opportunities of the children?

Do you seriously think people who want to go on holiday who are childless selfish just because the holiday they have chosen clashes with a term time holiday?

Am I selfish in that my Birthday coincides with February half term and to celebrate by big 40 I took a week off to spend time with my whole family and that included children.

There have already been various examples of why people may want time off at the time of school holidays, and most european holidays if you want some sun would probably clash

I am glad where I work it is very flexible, I tend to work July/August for my colleagues and they work Christmas for me as I like to go long haul then, that is because my OH gets two weeks flexible and two weeks Christmas.

to answer the OP no I don't think any parent should get priority but I do think people should try and give and take when it comes to time off work.

fluffnutter

I think that parents can be given priority over non-parents regarding when leave is taken provided they accept that non-parents are given priority regarding any promotions/jollies away to foreign parts etc. that may be on offer.

Nicki

jellyhead wrote: »

If employee A has no family or friends to help out with childcare and is either unable or unwilling to pay a nursery or childminder then why take the job?

She may have been in the job for many years, since well before she became pregnant . She may even have offered parents flexibility on holiday dates during that time, and expected this to be reciprocated.

Most people if asked would say they think it is unreasonable to be asked to pay (via their taxes) for parents to stay home unemployed until the youngest child in the family reaches secondary school age.

Many people without children would object to paying more tax to subsidise the childcare of others.

Most parents would say that they cannot access or afford to pay childcare for the full 13 weeks per year that the schools are off, but that they are happy to take their annual leave to look after their children instead.

Very few childcare clubs cater to children of all ages, and are open throughout all of the school holidays. All of them for example will be shut on Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Years Day, etc. Quite a few of them won't take very young school age children or older school age children. Almost all of them will not take children who have more than minor medical or educational needs (because their insurance requires them to have a higher staff to child ratio for children with statements and they can't charge families more for this).

Most people who choose to work while their children are young only require a degree of special consideration for quite a short period of their working life, and on either side of that period, are in a position to offer that consideration to others. Yes, they may need the consideration for several years consecutively but there is a natural end point.

Quite a high proportion of people will at some point in their lives have a child, and therefore benefit from the possibility of flexibility for that fairly short period. I accept that many people are also child free by choice or circumstance, and I do recognise that the need for flexibility then bites on them disproportionately, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that if they had a need or strong reason for leave at a particular time that this cannot be considered alongside the need of the parent, and a decision be taken between the two on a case by case basis.

F_Bear

I think that parents can be given priority over non-parents regarding when leave is taken provided they accept that non-parents are given priority regarding any promotions/jollies away to foreign parts etc. that may be on offer.

"im sorry u cant have promotion as you've got kids and had xmas off this year"

the "no win, no fee" lawyers would be queuing round the block if this where the case!

BobQ

Mad-Frog wrote: »

Do you seriously think people who want to go on holiday who are childless selfish just because the holiday they have chosen clashes with a term time holiday?

Am I selfish in that my Birthday coincides with February half term and to celebrate by big 40 I took a week off to spend time with my whole family and that included children.

There have already been various examples of why people may want time off at the time of school holidays, and most european holidays if you want some sun would probably clash

I never said that.

What I did say was that if you work in an industry where taking leave is problematic during school holidays and decide to apply to take it then when you have an alternative (as some seem to advocate) then yes you are selfish.

This is becoming a very sterile debate!

Bluemeanie_2

BobQ wrote: »

I never said that.

What I did say was that if you work in an industry where taking leave is problematic during school holidays and decide to apply to take it then when you have an alternative (as some seem to advocate) then yes you are selfish.

This is becoming a very sterile debate!

Agreed. I think most of the points have been well debated so we will all just have to agree to disagree.