should colleagues with kids get preference for holidays?

Nicki

michelle2008 wrote: »

We clearly have differing views here.

I am not sure we do michelle.

I would find it difficult emotionally as an employer to do this too. However, depending on the nature of the business and its financial stability, an employer may feel that commercially they have little choice in the matter. And it is IMO naive of non parents to think that employers do not, or should not, do that.

Added to which, any employer can cancel pre-agreed holiday so long as they give the employee at least twice as much notice as the length of the holiday booked. So in a small team, if a parent does resign due to childcare issues leaving a team with an unfilled space, the non parent is likely to find their holiday has to be cancelled for business reasons anyway.

Where the time is being requested because the parents either cannot afford to pay for childcare during school holidays, or because no such childcare is available where they live (sometimes certain age groups are very badly catered for), and there isn't family or friends in a position to help, and assuming the time was requested a reasonable period in advance, the parent isn't behaving badly by not actually being able to come to work whether or not their holiday has been approved. They legally and practically have absolutely no other choice but to stay home, and that is very rarely the case with any other holiday request.

Fire_Fox

I still don't understand why more parents are not starting up local groups where they help each other out with childcare over the holidays. Surely most parents know others from the school gates, as neighbours or parents of their children's friends? Maybe some people don't have childcare because they are not open minded to different solutions.

michelle2008

As I said I am fully aware of the challenges of parenting and I accept the point you are making. I think child care in this country is far too expensive - we need to do better.

However, if I was the employee whose skiing holiday got cancelled, I would be polishing up my CV !!

k12479

Nicki wrote: »

...if you refuse Employee A it is likely that she will have little option but to resign...Employee B she will be upset and demotivated for a while...

Nicki wrote: »

...if a parent does resign due to childcare issues...the non parent is likely to find their holiday has to be cancelled...

You seem transfixed by the supposed power of a parent threatening to leave. Parents are probably less likely to leave than non-parents as they need more stability.

Gees

Fire_Fox wrote: »

I still don't understand why more parents are not starting up local groups where they help each other out with childcare over the holidays. Surely most parents know others from the school gates, as neighbours or parents of their children's friends? Maybe some people don't have childcare because they are not open minded to different solutions.

I agree with you, it can be done. How it is organised, that is another matter.

I was quite fortunate, by the time my eldest was 10 yrs of age, while on my morning school run, which involved taking a neighbours child too, I met an old acquaintance a nurse who worked shifts, our youngest children (then aged 7) had been at preschool together. We briefly chatted, exchanged telephone numbers and for the next few years helped one another out as and when we could. It wasn’t at all one sided, and not one of the three sets of parents involved took advantage.

michelle2008 wrote: »

As I said I am fully aware of the challenges of parenting and I accept the point you are making. I think child care in this country is far too expensive - we need to do better.

However, if I was the employee whose skiing holiday got cancelled, I would be polishing up my CV !!

Childcare is expensive, but correct me if I am wrong it has improved in the last 10 years or less, not that I benefited.

Fire_Fox

Nicki wrote: »

I am not sure we do michelle.

I would find it difficult emotionally as an employer to do this too. However, depending on the nature of the business and its financial stability, an employer may feel that commercially they have little choice in the matter. And it is IMO naive of non parents to think that employers do not, or should not, do that.

Added to which, any employer can cancel pre-agreed holiday so long as they give the employee at least twice as much notice as the length of the holiday booked. So in a small team, if a parent does resign due to childcare issues leaving a team with an unfilled space, the non parent is likely to find their holiday has to be cancelled for business reasons anyway.

Where the time is being requested because the parents either cannot afford to pay for childcare during school holidays, or because no such childcare is available where they live (sometimes certain age groups are very badly catered for), and there isn't family or friends in a position to help, and assuming the time was requested a reasonable period in advance, the parent isn't behaving badly by not actually being able to come to work whether or not their holiday has been approved. They legally and practically have absolutely no other choice but to stay home, and that is very rarely the case with any other holiday request.

If you did cancel someone's skiing holiday what expenses would you pay? Because if you paid for the wasted holiday, any tickets booked to and from the airport, cattery or kennels you might as well start paying for your parent employee's childcare and not ruin your child free employee's holiday.

What would you do if you knew your child free employee would quit if you cancelled their annual leave? If the booked time was two weeks and you give at least four weeks notice that is long enough to hand in and work out one's notice. Thinking back to all the time away from home I have had over the last few years (none package holidays) in many cases I would actually have handed my notice if they had been cancelled due to a colleague's childcare. If it is relevant I am very good at my job and I do work extra hours/ shifts at the last minute including antisocial hours.

Genuine questions, I am interested in the grey areas.

CFC

Nicki wrote: »

Knowing that you have a certain statutory amount of holiday entitlement, and assuming you will be able to use this in the future to look after your children when they are off school doesn't count as thinking about childcare then? I imagine a significant number of parents do not remain employed by the same person for the full 12 years minimum it takes between thinking of starting a family, completing the pregnancy, and growing the child to secondary school age

No, it doesn't count as thinking about childcare. Not many employers will let parents have weeks and weeks off in one go. I certainly had no problem turning down a request for 4 weeks' leave over the summer! and I wouldn't play ball with 3 weeks either!

bestpud

poppy_f1 wrote: »

my work it is pretty fair for the major school holidays we have to put in our requests early (in fact this year they are due in next week) for the summer *june/july/aug* we put 3 choices of 2 weeks so overall it is pretty fair, rest of the days its first come first served
generally i tend to avoid the school holidays as much as possible but sometimes i cant help it if there is something i want to do and its at that time of year

what actually annoys me is the parents that think they have children and need to be off for childcare who assume that they will get the holidays because of that and try to guilt trip you if they dont
we arent allowed to prebook time off in dec as its our busiest time but some days will usually become available this year im expecting it to be christmas eve then the following thurs and fri then the same for NY week - most of the time you can get one or the other off but its the arrogance of some people who claim they need christmas eve off cos they have children....what and me as a childless person doesnt have family stuff to do on that day as well


also the parents who moan about needing the holidays off all the time and turns out their children are mid teenagers who are more than capable of looking after themselves, i had a bit of a fight a few years back whos son was 16 and she claimed she needed the holidays off

anyway i think the most fairest way is first come first served

Before I start - I do not believe parents should be given priority.

I ask for Christmas eve night off so I can be with my children.

However, I work Christmas eve morning, Christmas day or Boxing Day (I did all three of them one year) and I've not had new years day off since I started the job.

Last year I worked overnight the night before christmas eve, a 24 shift over the whole of boxing day and went in 8am new years day plus a full day shift and one half day shift in between.

I worked more hours over the period than any childless colleague in fact, as they wanted to be out partying and various other things.

Does wanting that one night shift off make me arrogant - I dont think so.

Bear in mind too that my eldest daughter works and only has the main holiday days off so I hardly see her.

Those of us with children often still have all the other priorities mentioned here.

If my colleagues simply looked at me asking for Christmas eve night off and took your stance, they'd be the ones to lose out as they gain from my willingness to make up for that one night a year, which if done totally fairly, I'd only work every 8 years anyway.

Give and take is what's needed.

I'd hate to work with some posters on here! Thanks goodness I'm part of a friendly team who work together to ensure the shifts are covered and all staff are happy.

JCP

Nicki wrote: »

In all circumstances?

Employee A has two primary school aged children and has asked for 2 weeks off over the Easter holidays as she does not have access to any form of childcare and she and her husband cover school holidays between them by taking the whole of their annual leave separately.

Employee B who has no children wants to go skiing with a group of friends over the same two weeks.

Employee B will undoubtedly be very upset if her request is declined, but as an employer, if you refuse Employee A it is likely that she will have little option but to resign and find a job which will enable her fit in her work round her childcare commitments, whereas if you refuse Employee B she will be upset and demotivated for a while, but the chances of losing her is less. So assuming that you don't want to lose either of them, isn't there a business case in circumstances such as this to accomodate the parent over the non parent, irrespective of your personal preference on the matter?

This one did make me chuckle Nicki, mainly because many moons ago I was Employee B in your scenario. I had booked my 2 weeks skiing with friends at Easter 6 months in advance, and my colleague played the parent card just under a month before my planned trip.

For the record, I'd always been accommodating prior to this point. As the only childless person in a team of 3, I covered Christmas and the summer without complaint. However, I'd already started to become irked at being put upon at the last moment to cover for school plays, sports days etc, and other general childcare issues. We were meant to do 8 evenings a month between us (on top of our normal day), and after a while it became apparent that I was regularly doing at least 6 of them though never with any notice nor for any extra pay. One colleague never did them as she always went crying to the boss about the latest crisis to befall her.

Cancelling my leave in favour of someone attempting to book leave outside our organisation's rules (1 month notice for every week requested), was quite simply the final straw - I resigned. I had sufficient annual leave due to take me to my end date so I never went back.

Heard from a now former colleague that all hell broke loose as it became apparent that they would all need to take their share of evening shifts, summer working, christmas shifts etc. Basically all the undesirable bits of the job.

Where I am now, everyone behaves like adults and does their fair share. No-one gets grief if they need to deal with an unexpected domestic issue (but then nobody takes advantage), and management don't overtly favour any particular part of the workforce. This year I will be covering the Christmas period (though it may turn out not to be required as it's client dependent) - it's more important to my colleagues that it is to me, and they actually appreciate it the fact that I've volunteered.

fluffnutter

hieveryone wrote: »

I agree, those with children should be given first priority. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but schools in some regions really hammer people for taking children out of school, so the option is get wrists slapped by the LA or not have a holiday.

So don't have a holiday. Simple. Going away on holiday isn't a right, nor is having children. Both are a choice, and I don't see why other people should be lower priority because of someone else's lifestyle choice.