should colleagues with kids get preference for holidays?

fluffnutter

It's not the main issue... but try telling some poor woman who's just suffered her third failed IVF attempt that she can't have two weeks off because her colleague who's popped out three kids without even blinking gets higher priority. It's insensitive and insulting.

Almo

BobQ wrote: »

But as a general principle those without children should not be so selfish as to insist on first come first serve or equal opportunities.

Sorry? You don't want people to have equal opportunities? As others have said you don't pick and choose equal opportunities - if people want to be treated equally at work then that extends to all areas of work, including annual leave. Treating one group differently because they have children is an incredibly slippery slope.

Thankfully, the vast majority of parents and non-parents seem entirely able to manage the issue between themselves. Give and take is required on all sides and I've been fortunate to always work in teams that recognise that.

indebtinsussex

when I worked it was a first come first served basis, I used to book my holidays in about february time so never had a problem with getting time off for the school holidays, I must admit though most of the people I worked with didnt have children or were even that keen on children, so they always used to book up so they could avoid school holidays on childfree resorts! lol

Nicki

Almo wrote: »

Give and take is required on all sides and I've been fortunate to always work in teams that recognise that.

I agree that this is the optimum. And I should say by the way that although I am a parent, I am not a working parent, and when I was my children were all below school age and we had a full time nanny, so I was always the colleague who needed and was willing to be accommodating, rather than the parent who needed willing colleagues.

I guess that what has come out from the thread is that the situation is not always black and white, whether you are a parent or a non parent. To say that a parent should never be allowed priority over a non parent seems nonsensical when there are circumstances when that would leave the parent with no choice to continue the employment, and might actually not impact on the non parent that much. Take for example the non parent who wants to go and spend a week with her family and decides that she will make use of the Easter Bank Holidays to ensure she only needs to use 3 days leave to have 5 days off work. She books the 3 days after Easter off right at the beginning of the holiday year. The parent doesn't get her school dates until 2 weeks after the holiday year starts and her children's Easter holiday begins on Good Friday and lasts for 2 weeks. If the non parent hasn't spent any money, they may well not mind in the slightest if the employer asked them to take their 3 days leave just before Good Friday rather than just after Easter Monday to enable the parent to have one week of the school holidays off, and no one ends up inconvenienced in the least. But if the rule is that the employer cannot ever make that request, the business doesn't run very smoothly.

As for "parents threatening to leave" if they don't get their way, that is a distortion of the point I was trying to make. If a parent genuinely has no childcare in place for a working week, and has intended to use holiday time to cover that, but is not permitted to do so, what real choice do they have. They will almost certainly be dismissed anyway if they call in sick after being refused the holiday time, and if they have no childcare of any kind for that week, then they have no childcare of any kind, so they cannot come into work. A good employer, who values that employee, would try to find a way to solve that issue for the sake of the business. That may mean allowing the employee to work from home or some other solution, but for a lot of jobs that isn't possible, so either the employee is given the time out of their annual leave entitlement, or they must go either by resignation or dismissal. Other than leaving the children home alone, if as I said there is genuinely no other childcare alternative what else can the parent do?

BobQ

Almo wrote: »

Sorry? You don't want people to have equal opportunities? As others have said you don't pick and choose equal opportunities - if people want to be treated equally at work then that extends to all areas of work, including annual leave. Treating one group differently because they have children is an incredibly slippery slope.

Thankfully, the vast majority of parents and non-parents seem entirely able to manage the issue between themselves. Give and take is required on all sides and I've been fortunate to always work in teams that recognise that.

I have never been in the situation of having to negotiate with colleagues or managers over when to take leave so I have no axe to grind here. As you say most people seem to be able to sort it out amongst themselves but clearly its much easier in some industries than others. In some ways I think that if you choose to work in one of those industries as a parent you should accept that you may not be able to get leave when you want it.

That said if you work in an organisation where these things are decided on the whims of your manager, I think that taking the attitude that those with children should be given no special consideration is selfish. What matters in my view is whether children get to spend time with their parents. Equal opportunity is a fine principle but what about the opportunities of the children?

Almo

Nicki wrote: »

I guess that what has come out from the thread is that the situation is not always black and white, whether you are a parent or a non parent. To say that a parent should never be allowed priority over a non parent seems nonsensical when there are circumstances when that would leave the parent with no choice to continue the employment, and might actually not impact on the non parent that much. Take for example the non parent who wants to go and spend a week with her family and decides that she will make use of the Easter Bank Holidays to ensure she only needs to use 3 days leave to have 5 days off work. She books the 3 days after Easter off right at the beginning of the holiday year. The parent doesn't get her school dates until 2 weeks after the holiday year starts and her children's Easter holiday begins on Good Friday and lasts for 2 weeks. If the non parent hasn't spent any money, they may well not mind in the slightest if the employer asked them to take their 3 days leave just before Good Friday rather than just after Easter Monday to enable the parent to have one week of the school holidays off, and no one ends up inconvenienced in the least. But if the rule is that the employer cannot ever make that request, the business doesn't run very smoothly.

I think there are two main points I'd make in response here:

1. Yes, the non-parent should not have spent any money and nor should anyone else involved in the plans the non-parent has made.

2. The parent should explore other avenues (their parents, their usual (if appropriate) childcare arrangements) before asking that someone else be inconvenienced.

To add a third:

3. The parent should be equally willing to give up their leave if a non-parent has some reason to request that they be given leave while their colleague's is cancelled.

I think I generally agree with most of what you've said here and I understand why you are grouping people into parents and non-parents, given the subject of the thread, so this is not meant as an assumption but I don't think it should be about non-parents being expected to give up leave for a parent. It should be about colleagues being flexible for each other and recognising where a situation could not have been anticipated. Doesn't matter whether they have kids or not.

pinkladyof66

i had a situation just whereby i was booked into hospital for an operation today so i cancelled child minder for next week as i would be home and would have been off sick. All planned well in advance.

However two days ago operation was cancelled ! and now i am expected to work half term week - with no childminder now in place this makes it very difficult for me. So I have had to book the time off as leave luckily there was only 1 other person off however yesterday when i had to go into book these days off another team member had already emailed me and asked for the Monday off. As I needed this for childcare she wasnt prepared to budge (even though she was booking flexi time) I asked the other team member who was having the monday off too as flexi and even though she was going away the weekend and would be back she kind heartedly cancelled and said she would have the flexi day another time(as she was only doing housework). If she had refused they both would have had to take annual leave for these days as annual leave requests get priority over taking flexi. It is very difficult and in hindsight I couldnt have booked the time off for half term as this would have to have been taken as sick as i would be re cooperating from operation.

Some work colleagues are really helpful I have been helpful to mine in the 30 years of not having children but this year is different. And give and take goes along way in work.

Nicki

That is tough pinklady. It does make life difficult when some workers regard a request to be flexible because of another employee's childcare needs to be intrinsically unacceptable when they would otherwise be flexible for other reasons.

There is an assumption on the part of some non parents that it is easy to find someone to look after your kids. But many people who have young children, will have parents who also work. Their "friends at the school gates" probably work as well, and few parents would feel comfortable leaving their children with another parent they did not know well. Childminders don't often have short term ad hoc spaces, childcare schemes don't necessarily run when you need them (particularly if you are not entitled to Bank Holidays off but get time off in lieu), and a nanny from a temp agency could cost 3 times what you earn for a day.

Realistically speaking for example, if you did a 12 hour shift and worked Bank Holidays, how would you cope if your employer refused you annual leave over the Christmas and New Year period, when all childcare schemes would be closed, and friends and parents were also either working, away on holiday or just madly busy? I cannot think of a solution to that one, and am just glad I am not a working parent who is a nurse or retail worker for example and having to manage that!

krlyr

Where do you draw the line? Mothers get priority, fathers second priority, aunts and uncles slightly above those with no nephews or nieces to go on family holidays with? What about if I wanted to go on a family holiday - I have no kids, no nephews and nieces, but my stepsisters are of school age so family holidays are planned around them. Do I get to pull the "child card" for my annual leave? Or, like an earlier example I saw, if my partner worked in a school and was limited to taking leave in holiday times only, what happens then? Or, for another example - I'm studying in evening classes so I'm attending lessons twice a week. The college operates the same term times for adult students as their daytime students. If I was at a vital stage of my course and unable to miss lessons, I would book a holiday away in half-term/the summer to plan around it - and that doesn't relate to having any kind of school child in my family.

Lots of people can have valid reasons for wanting school holiday time off, without having kids themselves, and I think it's totally unfair to allow parents priority over non-parents. I'm glad that my bosses don't employ that kind of system - despite having several parents in my department, holiday is generally a first-come, first-served basis but with us having the manners to discuss it amongst ourselves and come to a compromise if necessary (for example, the non-parents tend to leave the half-terms for the parents if they don't really need them, so if they did need them one year the parent doesn't tend to mind as they've had plenty of half-terms off themselves). Worked fine for the 6 years I've been here, and presumably very well before that too.

poppy_f1

loracan1 wrote: »

Why would any sane person who can take their holidays whenever, want to take them during the school holidays?

just as an example from a childless person

i have wanted to attend the british GP for the past few years which normally happens early july (school holiday time in scotland) and i have been unable to get the holidays because all the spaces in my work that time has gone by the time the date has been confirmed



the olympics happened during the school holidays this year - the commonwealth games will happen in glasgow during the school holidays


just because its the main holiday time doesnt mean people will take their main holiday (personally i prefer may/june and sept for that) but there are usually some kind of other events on at that time that people may want to attend and have time off work