Girl Guides membership - our daughter cannot join?

poet123

apples1 wrote: »

But many many many brownies & guides do exactly that. Many are never asked out right whether they believe in God & which God they believe in. If it were that critical why is every brownie & guide not asked. If that happened I woyld have known in advance & we could have decided whether to lie & get a child to lie to get in or not to apply to join GG & Brownies.

She has attended Brownies every week for 3 years and never been asked!

Did she not make her Brownie Promise? If so, that includes the same sentiments.

I do think that if you make a vow or promise you should only do so if it is true and meaningful to you or there really is no point to it.

mikey72

poet123 wrote: »

Did she not make her Brownie Promise? If so, that includes the same sentiments.

I do think that if you make a vow or promise you should only do so if it is true and meaningful to you or there really is no point to it.

I entirely agree. It doesn't matter if sometimes you get away with it, or if the last time no one caught you.
It should only matter to you, that when you say anything, you believe it, and not because it's easy.
That's what one the main principals of guiding is.

milliebear00001

Brownies are seven when they make their promise! They still believe in Father Christmas. Asking a child to discuss whether they believe in God is rather like asking them whether they believe in quantum-physics. For most children, the response will be along the lines of 'yes (or no) because that's what my mum/dad/school/best mate believes'. For most, it won't, in any way, be a reasoned and reflected upon response.

Surely it's a question only a fully reasoning adult should be expected to answer, and CAN answer with any degree of meaning.

poet123

milliebear00001 wrote: »

Brownies are seven when they make their promise! They still believe in Father Christmas. Asking a child to discuss whether they believe in God is rather like asking them whether they believe in quantum-physics. For most children, the response will be along the lines of 'yes (or no) because that's what my mum/dad/school/best mate believes'. For most, it won't, in any way, be a reasoned and reflected upon response.

Surely it's a question only a fully reasoning adult should be expected to answer, and CAN answer with any degree of meaning.

I can remember making my Promise and the weeks of prep that went into the run up to it. All the wording was dissected and broken down into elements that could be understood by a child of that age. So I don't really accept that argument.

Person_one

poet123 wrote: »

I can remember making my Promise and the weeks of prep that went into the run up to it. All the wording was dissected and broken down into elements that could be understood by a child of that age. So I don't really accept that argument.

I remember getting given a sash and a 'pixies' badge, skipping over some ribbons, and then everybody having orange squash and biscuits.

So I don't think your experience at the world's most boring brownie pack is necessarily representative.

poet123

Person_one wrote: »

I remember getting given a sash and a 'pixies' badge, skipping over some ribbons, and then everybody having orange squash and biscuits.

So I don't think your experience at the world's most boring brownie pack is necessarily representative.

Yes, because being taught the meaning of a promise you are about to make, and given the understanding that promises are important is never going to be useful in life is it?;):T

milliebear00001

poet123 wrote: »

Yes, because being taught the meaning of a promise you are about to make, and given the understanding that promises are important is never going to be useful in life is it?;):T

The Brownie promise, in most troops, has a lot to do with fairies and toadstools and very little about the nature of the promise itself. That's the movement's choice, not mine!

My point is that you can't make promises at the age of seven, about things you don't fully understand. Hell, there are University professors arguing it out! Making a promise, without a full understanding of all the available facts that pertain to that promise, is just as useless as making one you don't believe.

poet123

milliebear00001 wrote: »

My point is that you can't make promises at the age of seven, about things you don't fully understand. Hell, there are University professors arguing it out! Making a promise, without a full understanding of all the available facts that pertain to that promise, is just as useless as making one you don't believe.

I don't believe that at all.

If you make a promise with the understanding which is age appropriate that is all that can be asked or expected at that time. The OP's daughter has stated she doesn't believe in God, she made that statement when her parents were not with her and it is how she sees things. Is it not a valid statement because she is 10 and therefore cannot know for sure all the relevant issues? Or is it a valid statement because that is how she sees things from her current life experience? I think the latter.

enabledebra

I have committed the sin of not reading the whole thread so apologies if this has been posted alreadyhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8901378/Girl-guides-set-to-drop-oath-to-God-in-bow-to-secularists.html

and if this hasn't happened this forum thread is interesting:


It is perfectly possible to make the promise without any religion. I have no belief in any mythical deity. My "god" is science and truth based on fact and evidence. That what I promised to love.

http://www.guiders.co.uk/showthread.php/27521-Atheist-and-guiding/page2

milliebear00001

It is not a valid statement because she is ten and has never thought about any of the evidence, arguments for and aginst the existence of a supernatural being etc. It isn't valid in the same way the belief of anyone, child or adult, who has never considered those issues isn't valid.

If I asked you why you didn't believe in God, and all you said was 'I just don't', then I wouldn't think that much of a premise for a belief either - would you?

I would be interested to know what the Leader would have said if the child had answered 'I believe in Jesus'. I'm willing to bet that would have been the end of the discussion, but what does that statement actually mean to a child?