Girl Guides membership - our daughter cannot join?

apples1

Nicki wrote: »

Unless I have misread, OP has not yet had a chance to speak to the leader and say her child will make the vow though. So far as I read, the issue was raised and the child declared herself to be of no faith. We don't yet know whether the leader will be happy with this compromise.

The leader came out to see my husband when he arrived outside to collect our daughter. Her words to him were "we have a bit of a problem". She went on to show him the promise written in the book & said that when she discussed this with our daughter & asked her which God our daughter believed in she had said that she didn't believe in God. He was rather taken aback but said "yes that's right" daughter is an atheist like him. She said that she doesn't have to believe in the Christian God but must believe in a God. She went on to suggest some examples of other "faiths".

As the GG website says Guides is open to ALL girls we had no idea this was a requirement and as she has attended Brownies every week for three years it wasn't something we expected. She was excited to go & even had GG uniform for her 10th birthday present!

He just said politely ok we will have a chat, collected her and made light of it on the way home as our daughter was confused and upset. They came home, told me and we reassured her, put her to bed and went online to research!

poet123

Welshwoofs wrote: »

When you say 'suits that particular leader' what you are actually saying is 'although the Guides state they don't discriminate on any grounds and are concerned with diversity and equality, if an individual leader wants to discriminate on a local level that's A.OK'

No, I was looking at it from the opposite perspective. That the norm is for Leaders to expect the premise of the Guiding movement to be adhered to, but if certain Leaders are more lax than others then so be it.

Welshwoofs wrote: »

The membership criteria is here:

http://guidingmanual.guk.org.uk/policies/membership_and_recruitment/young_members.aspx
"Youth membership of Girlguiding UK is voluntary and is open to any girl or young woman aged between her 5th (4th in Northern Ireland) and 26th birthdays, regardless of faith, race, culture, nationality or any other circumstance"

Can you see any mention of needing to believe in a god?

.

In the same section you quote it goes on to mention the Promise;

• A young member makes, or works towards making, the Promise appropriate to the section to which she belongs.

The Promise

Adults, Senior Section members and Guides work towards making, or reaffirm, the following Promise:
I promise that I will do my best:
To love my God,
To serve the Queen and my country,
To help other people
and
To keep the Guide Law.


So, it is clearly there and one chooses whether or not to make that promise or not.

mikey72

apples1 wrote: »

The leader came out to see my husband when he arrived outside to collect our daughter. Her words to him were "we have a bit of a problem". She went on to show him the promise written in the book & said that when she discussed this with our daughter & asked her which God our daughter believed in she had said that she didn't believe in God. He was rather taken aback but said "yes that's right daughter is an atheist like him. She said that she doesn't have to believe in the Christian God but must believe in a God. She went on to suggest some examples of other "faiths".

As the GG website says Guides is open to ALL girls we had no idea this was a requirement and as she has attended Brownies every week for three years it wasn't something we expected. She was excited to go & even had GG uniform for her 10th birthday present!

He just said politely ok we will have a chat, collected her and made light of it on the way home as our daughter was confused and upset. They came home, told me and we reassured her, put her to bed and went online to research!

They are fairly up front about the spiritual side in here, and also fairly clear about the belief in god, and the importance of their morals which would include meaning the promise if it was taken.
http://www.girlguiding.org.uk/pdf/WhoWeAre.pdf

The same page that states they are open to anyone etc, also has the other half of the same page devoted to spirituality.

http://guidingmanual.guk.org.uk/policies/equality_and_diversity.aspx

Why can you not simply join and not make the promise?

redpete

Welshwoofs wrote: »

Yeah? Well they certainly didn't teach me how to make a good G&T.

I hope not given that you were only in the Brownies for 2 weeks before they kicked you out.

(You must have done something very bad to get 'kicked out' - sure you didn't just get bored and not turn up after 2 weeks?)

apples1

[QUOTE=mikey72;56032741
Why can you not simply join and not make the promise?[/QUOTE]

not sure if you were asking this to me..... If you were then all I can say is that is what I am thinking of asking the leader? We don't mind and neither does my daughter whether she makes the promise or not but the impression that was given was that she needed to make it to join & needed to believe in a God to make it.

For clarity in response to some other posts - we honestly had no idea faith was a requirement to join. We assumed "all" meant all. Nothing the GG group do is religious - no church attendance etc. She is a kind polite honest just ten year old. We have nothing against religion it's just not part of our lives. Our children sit thorough assembly every day at school, sing the hymns, recite the prayers etc & I guess to me (having not given it much thought until now) I just see it as tradition and didn't think it meant she had to believe every word and i guess i thought the same about the GG & Brownie promise.

milliebear00001

So, if it is true that you don't HAVE to make the promise to take part in Girl Guiding, isn't the easiest solution that she simply attends, but doesn't go through the promising ceremony? It states 'works towards' making the promise, which indicates there is room for children who are not 'ready' to promise yet?

mikey72

apples1 wrote: »

............... and didn't think it meant she had to believe every word and do I thought the same about the GG & Brownie promise.

That's part of the guiding tradition though.
To mean what they say, and to stand by their word. So I can understand a leader that won't let someone merely recite it if they don't mean it.

poet123

apples1 wrote: »

not sure if you were asking this to me..... If you were then all I can say is that is what I am thinking of asking the leader? We don't mind and neither does my daughter whether she makes the promise or not but the impression that was given was that she needed to make it to join & needed to believe in a God to make it.

For clarity in response to some other posts - we honestly had no idea faith was a requirement to join. We assumed "all" meant all. Nothing the GG group do is religious - no church attendance etc. She is a kind polite honest just ten year old. We have nothing against religion it's just not part of our lives. Our children sit thorough assembly every day at school, sing the hymns, recite the prayers etc & I guess to me (having not given it much thought until now) I just see it as tradition and didn't think it meant she had to believe every word and do I thought the same about the GG & Brownie promise.

Now you do know does it not make a difference?

From what you say the Leader is of the old school and so unlikely to deviate from the requirements of every guide working towards making the Promise. If she is aware that is not ever going to be an option (which seems to be what you are saying) then she is unlikely to allow your daughter to join her troop.

apples1

poet123 wrote: »

Now you do know does it not make a difference?

From what you say the Leader is of the old school and so unlikely to deviate from the requirements of every guide working towards making the Promise. If she is aware that is not ever going to be an option (which seems to be what you are saying) then she is unlikely to allow your daughter to join her troop.

I have no idea whether it will ever be an option. If our daughter develops a faith and chooses to believe in God we would have no problem with that at all.

If the leader won't let her join because she doesnt believe in God then I don't see what more I could do. I will be very sad for my lovely girl if that is the case though.

apples1

mikey72 wrote: »

That's part of the guiding tradition though.
To mean what they say, and to stand by their word. So I can understand a leader that won't let someone merely recite it if they don't mean it.

But many many many brownies & guides do exactly that. Many are never asked out right whether they believe in God & which God they believe in. If it were that critical why is every brownie & guide not asked. If that happened I woyld have known in advance & we could have decided whether to lie & get a child to lie to get in or not to apply to join GG & Brownies.

She has attended Brownies every week for 3 years and never been asked!