(Text removed by MSE Forum Team) The Tories/Liberliars

Gracchus_Babeuf

Generali wrote: »

TBH I'm the exact opposite but I find your views very interesting and I have 2 questions:

1. Why don't you think the Labour Party represent your beliefs better?
2. Do you see a likelihood that your preferred sort of Conservatism will return to prominence within the Conservative Party?

The Labour Party used to be quite socially conservative in the days of Attlee and to a lesser degree, Wilson. The party reflected the values of ordinary working class people, who were (and to a large extent still are) socially conservative. Then it became too influenced by the loony left and lost its way under Foot and - to a lesser extent - Kinnock. Smith would have been a better leader but he died prematurely and then we got Blair, the arch-libertarian with Tory sympathies.

As for a return to Heathite christian democracy, I'm not optimistic. The problem is Britain has become 'McBritain' - a virtual 51st state of the USA, not a proper European country. The Tories are much more like the American Republicans than a mainstream centre-right European party. The incresasingly strident euroscepticism within the Conservative Party is a symptom of this trend.

Eellogofusciouhipoppokunu

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Whoever you vote for the government always gets in. Labour, Tory, Lib Dem, they are all the same faceless neo-liberal puppets. The system is now too broken to support a middle class so even the lower middle classes get it, not just the workers.

This country needs change, radical change.

Are 'lower middle class' not 'workers'?

Gracchus_Babeuf

robpw2 wrote: »

i for one can't wait for 2015 when labour form a coalition with the lib dems to take power... and they borrow borrrow borrow borrow more and more money and put us further and further into recession , till they continue to cut things the tory party wanted to cut citing some excuse... take derby for example ... labour got elected in may what have they done so far.....oh yes borrrowed 5 billion to rebuild headquarters, build a velodrome and sack 1300 workers, close adult day centres despite telling us the tory cuts were harsh and unfair and they wouldnt do that .....

This obsession about the national debt is just an excuse for the current government to implement extreme policies to harm the majority of people. The USA has something 14 trillion dollars of debt and they are managing it. The trouble is that debt is, to a large extent, an invention of the banking system, and it is the banking system that needs to be reformed root and branch.

If the economy grows faster than the interest repayments on debt, then no matter how large the debt, it can safely be serviced. What we need is a government that creates growth, not destroys it.

StevieJ

LauraW10 wrote: »

The Tories didn't actually win the last election....the Tories haven't actually won an election since 1992. That's 20 years ago.

I bet Labour wish that stat was related to 2006 rather than 1992.

Gracchus_Babeuf

Eellogofusciouhipoppokunu wrote: »

Blair is a war criminal, hardly comparable to the current government.

Before saying that you should bear in mind that the Conservatives wholeheartedly supported Blair's decision to go to war with Iraq. If Blair is a war criminal, so is Cameron.

angrypirate

LauraW10 wrote: »

The Tories didn't actually win the last election....the Tories haven't actually won an election since 1992. That's 20 years ago.

The Tories did get a higher percentage of votes in 2010 then Labour did in the 2005 General Election.

All to do with Labour manipulating the boundaries so that their constituencies were much smaller than the Tories. This is what the Tories are trying to reverse in this years boundary review - all boundaries must have an electorate that is no smaller than 72810 and no larger than 80473.

Currently, the Tories have 7 of the largest 10 boundaries and Labour hold 9 of the smallest 10.

[Source ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/electoral-bias/]

Eellogofusciouhipoppokunu

Gracchus_Babeuf wrote: »

Before saying that you should bear in mind that the Conservatives wholeheartedly supported Blair's decision to go to war with Iraq. If Blair is a war criminal, so is Cameron.

Yes, because like the rest of us they were fed a lie about WMD by Blair. Do you remember why we went to war with Iraq?

Gracchus_Babeuf

Eellogofusciouhipoppokunu wrote: »

Yes, because like the rest of us they were fed a lie about WMD by Blair. Do you remember why we went to war with Iraq?

The Tories would do anything that their masters in Washington want, and you know it. The issue was never about WMD - that was a pretext - the reason for the war was to prevent Saddam Hussein from being a threat to the security of oil supply, and by implication the US economy.

ruggedtoast

Eellogofusciouhipoppokunu wrote: »

Are 'lower middle class' not 'workers'?

Yes, but they tend not to think of themselves like that.

Gracchus_Babeuf

angrypirate wrote: »

The Tories did get a higher percentage of votes in 2010 then Labour did in the 2005 General Election.

All to do with Labour manipulating the boundaries so that their constituencies were much smaller than the Tories. This is what the Tories are trying to reverse in this years boundary review - all boundaries must have an electorate that is no smaller than 72810 and no larger than 80473.

Currently, the Tories have 7 of the largest 10 boundaries and Labour hold 9 of the smallest 10.

[Source ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/electoral-bias/]

The reason we have constituencies is for MPs to represent a given region, not to have an exact population match evenly distributed. Therefore, what the conservatives are wanting to do is highly unethical and I hope will be voted down by the Lib-Dems. Our democratic system is based on the concept of a constituency as an area with a distinct local identity - if you water this down by enforcing an artifical population distribution then you might as well get rid of the entire system. Personally I prefer a system closer to PR as that would represent voters more fairly - the Tories just want to twist the system to suit themselves.