Jobcentre forcing me on Work Program

BigAunty

dandelionclock30 wrote: »

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How can that be correct? if so whats the point of all training and FE and HE because surley everybody was unskilled at one point before they did their courses etc?.

If I remember correctly, these academic studies focussed on training courses for unemployed adults, not FE/HE but briefer courses to upskill the unemployed. They implied they are a waste of time in terms of improving salaries (perhaps employability, too). If I find the link again, I'll post it.

I don't think its the govt's job to provide a tailor made training course for each unemployed person. I think it is better if the person takes charge of their own education/training with existing providers.

sniggings

BigAunty wrote: »

Only a very tiny percentage of people are on JSA for 2 plus years. I agree but the bad cases are what the MPs and media focus on.

In the US there are some states where unemployment benefit is sometimes limited to 2 years across a person's whole lifetime (otherwise they have to enrol on a workfare scheme and do community placements on a full time basis to qualify for benefits).have you seen the area that have high unemployment, they are near enough ghettos, it has saved the government no money and unemployment has not gone down, all it has done is reduce the tax income and increase crime.

There the philosophy is 'all jobs are good jobs' - they don't care about the personal preferences of the applicant. In Germany, I understand that some job seekers are simply sent to employers to work - they don't apply, the labour exchange merely tells them where and when to turn up for work. as long as the employer is fair and the work pays the min wage, then I wish they would do that here, the application for some jobs here that pay £6.08 are way over the top.

Academic studies have shown that training the unskilled rarely results in any great increase in their wages so no great return on investment. training them to get any job would be good and off benefits, I'm not sure what evidence you have for this but if it's the type of training the government offer then no wonder, I can't beleive that given the correct training that you can not turn an unskilled person or a person unable to get a job, into one that can work and earn a good living.

Why should the govt train them - why can't the individual take responsibility for their own education and skills?depends what kind of world you want to live in, we could also save loads in scrapping schools etc

The problem is this government are trying to convince us all that the only answer is punish and remove benefit from not just those that do not want to work but from all those that claim.

I believe the benefit system needs fixing but this government are not trying to do that, they are frightened to make cuts where they know they will loose votes, such as pensions, child benefits etc so go for the easy target benefits, they have not tried to target the cuts to those people that get too much but cuts right across the board but still not really touching the people that take advantage of the system.

dandelionclock30

Dunroamin wrote: »

There can be a difference between people who have arranged their training and paid for it themselves, compared with someone who's been sent on a course by JCP.

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Yes Im aware of that thank you.
What I was referring to was the bit in bold I highligted

Academic studies have shown that training the unskilled rarely results in any great increase in their wages so no great return on investment.

dandelionclock30

BigAunty wrote: »

If I remember correctly, these academic studies focussed on training courses for unemployed adults, not FE/HE but briefer courses to upskill the unemployed. They implied they are a waste of time in terms of improving salaries (perhaps employability, too). If I find the link again, I'll post it.

I don't think its the govt's job to provide a tailor made training course for each unemployed person. I think it is better if the person takes charge of their own education/training with existing providers.

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Probably as already said this is the case because a lot of the courses that are offerred by the jobcentre are absolute rubbish and theres only so much confidence building and c.v building a person can do.

Also unemployed people are not a homogenous group of unskilled people. Many unemployed people are highly skilled and educated but cant find work because there is virtually non. For example there are currently a lot of unemployed teachers.

I agree that its a good idea if people try to sort out their own training. Near me there are part time courses that unemployed people can access and voluntary work etc which helps with references etc. One of the problems here is that many courses are for the under 25 s only. Take hairdressing for example, you cant do this at my local college unless you pay for yourself.There is no concessions if you are on benefits.

I think that as well as helping with jobsearch the work programme would be better off giving people community placements with NVQs attached. EG People could do things like gardening, with units such as how to operate bushcutters and hedge trimmers safley etc. Upon completion they could then be doing some work for themselves. Surely this is better than what is being offerred at the moment.

BigAunty

dandelionclock30 wrote: »

Academic studies have shown that training the unskilled rarely results in any great increase in their wages so no great return on investment.

Right, as I previously stated, in some US states, job claimants get short thrift - they cannot spend years on unemployment benefit, they are expected to get any job, they aren't diverted onto training courses, fairly soon after claiming unemployment benefit they are forced to attend community placements or full time supervised job searches.

I'm not sure that I've found the exact study which warns against the provision of training because it doesn't improve the applicants chances but there's a mention of it here.

"Avoid education and training. Government training and remedial education programs in general do not increase recipients' wage rates and do little to reduce dependence. A recent Labor Department study of the government's largest training program, the Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA), found that the program had little or no effect on the wages of trainees: The average hourly wage rate of female trainees rose 3.4 percent, while the hourly wages of males did not increase at all."

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/7012

Jamie_Carter

Ollie90 wrote: »

Hi,

Since finishing college I've not been able to secure full time work.

I've been on Jobseekers for a while and they told me I'd have to go on the Work Program. However I've already been to the same company they are suggesting now and found them really unhelpful and uninspiring, the company itself is just located in a business block and is just a horrible old room surrounded by 10 old computers which barely work and has a desk in the middle of the room with newspapers. I don't know why this is supposed to be a good thing because they don't help me find work and I find it really uninspiring and depressing. Is there any way I can refuse to go to this work program considering I've already been there and my feelings about it? I went to a different work program which was great and ended up in some work but got made redundant, but this one is just dreadful.

I'm afraid it's all part of becoming an adult, that we have to do things that we don't want to do in life. There are millions of people in jobs that they don't like, but they do it to earn an income, rather than scrounging off the state, and being paid to do nothing by all the hard working people in the country.

So I'm sorry to be harsh, but get off your backside and do the work placement. Or try and find something better to either do as a placement, or as a proper job.

BigAunty

dandelionclock30 wrote: »

..

I think that as well as helping with jobsearch the work programme would be better off giving people community placements with NVQs attached. EG People could do things like gardening, with units such as how to operate bushcutters and hedge trimmers safley etc. Upon completion they could then be doing some work for themselves. Surely this is better than what is being offerred at the moment.

In the US model which I outlined, the unemployed by and large must do community placements or full time supervised job seeking in order to receive their benefits and for every day they miss, they lose a day's dole money. They also provide child care for lone mothers (who have to seek employment when their youngest turns 3). They also dock benefits for truant children.

But despite what you are proposing, most unemployed people would baulk at workfare (working for your dole money) - the OP bitterly whinged at the prospect of short mandatory supervised job searches.

You've bigged it up as an NVQ giving course, thus making it into a long and expensive one straight away, but at its core, it's making people work for nothing and this is highly unpopular.

The US model simply says 'there are loads of unskilled jobs, no need to retrain people at public expense to do them'.

dandelionclock30

I dont know what its like where you live, but here there are certainly not loads of unskilled jobs. Theres about 100 unskilled ish jobs advertised on the Direct Gov website per week- obviously there will be some more here and there, but and its a big but there are £25,000 people signing on JSA!.
I personally dont have a problem with doing some community work like part time in return for benefits. What I do have a problem with is big buisnesses benefitting and exploiting people when they should be paying people the correct rate.
If the Governemnet invested in people properly and provided qualifications like NVQs then at least people would have more chance of getting work when combining this with experience.
Even for a lot of cleaning jobs now then want 2 references, COSHH certificates etc.
Also there are a lot of very highly qualified people who are unemployed and a lot of employers wanting unskilled staff will not employ them.

Morlock

sniggings wrote: »

I am looking at the unskilled jobs and even they want experience, a car, an NVQ level 2 in god knows what all for the grand total of £6.08!

This is going to become a more common scenario as benefits are cut even further. Employers know that people will be so desperate to sign-off, their expectations from employees will become more and demanding, knowing that hundreds of applicants will be desperate for even a minimum wage job.

Those who advocate benefit cuts are (inadvertently) lowering the standard of living for all of us, including themselves.

chris1973

However I've already been to the same company they are suggesting now and found them really unhelpful and uninspiring

These placements are meant to reflect real life employment, and most of the Jobs i've worked in have been "unhelpful and uninspiring", whether its sweeping a factory floor or painting green boxes brown......

What exactly are you expecting? Sir Alan Sugar to select you as his Aide?

Unfortunately the vast majority of Jobs are mundane and fall into the category you seem to hate, so the only advice would be to go into further education in order to stand a better chance of getting the job of your dreams, or working for yourself.

Choose Wisely