Suitable punishment for eldest son...

Northern_Princess

Blackpool_Saver wrote: »

I'll bet all you "hard line" takers have another parent to back you up. Try doing all this on your own, I was driving round all night looking for my son, going to places where they thought I was a social worker they were that scary, it was 2 years of hell, thankfully now he has come through it and can see they were wronguns, but it was only because I kept on and on and would not give up and leave him to his own devices. It nearly saw me off, but we came through it, and I did it alone.........

edited to add, the police were useless, they took him back to the bad places

Actually, I was a single parent up to 2 years ago. So all us 'hard line takers' never had another parent to back us up! I have brought my daughter up on my own from she was very young when her father died. I am glad your son has come through his wrong doing, but please do not pull the 'single parent' line.

DVardysShadow

poet123 wrote: »

So, basically you are saying that if he is behaving this way at 14 it is too late to effect change? If you take your hypothesis to the fullest extent, you would never punish or sanction any teenager lest they see that as the green light to inflict the same on a younger more vulnerable child. Obviously that cannot be right. Sanctions have to be used, although I do agree that by 14 if such behaviour is happening there are issues which have not been addressed, but saying that is not helpful to the OP.

You have to work with what you have, this is what it is, and in order to prevent even more issues arising you have to take a firm line.

Let me try and clear something up a little further. You seem to have got hung up on the outcome of continuing with the punishment system as having the likely result that he will pick on younger children. What you are failing to recognise is that I am not saying that this behaviour is inevitable - or even probable. I am only giving this possibility as just one of a broad range of possible unpredicted and negative consequences of continuing with the punishment system.

Now, my hypothesis is no more and no less a hypothesis than the majority hypothesis on this thread, that you work your way out of this problem by punishment. I am certainly not saying "that if he is behaving this way at 14 it is too late to effect change". The risk is not so much that continuing with punishment will not produce change - more that the results will become decreasingly predictable and increasingly negative.

Most interventions will achieve change, but making punishment as the first resort will usually go past its sell by date with any growing person at some point. I do not know how old you are, poet [and we don't need to know] - but if your mother was still punishing you to make you conform to her behavioural agenda, you would be on here as one messed up individual.

Indeed, at some point, if a growing person at some point in their later development were not to change from complying as a result of punishment being meted out at some point in the transition to adulthood you would say something is wrong. And at some point, you need that person to behave in a certain way without the need for application of punishment in order to live a successful life.

14 is young to be making a transition to adulthood, but among the underclass, there seems to be a transition to independence in early teens - hence the gang culture. Obviously, this is not the same as a transition to full responsible adulthood, but once started, you cannot put the genie back in the bottle - if the butterfly starts to come out of the chrysalis too early, with its wings less than fully formed, you cannot force it back to make its wings form fully in the chrysalis.

When you say that you have to work with what you have, it seems that the majority view here is that you only have punishment. What you actually have is a 14 year old who unfortunately has embarked on the transition to independence too early, who needs help to be able to cope with independence and who needs a home where he would rather be, than out with his undesirable mates.

Mother out till the early hours to find him and stressing about how she is going to punish him is sending out a strong message that mother's love in searching for him is actually motivated by the desire to punish him. It is going to make home a more deeply unattractive place, which is the opposite of what is needed.

In psychological terms, what is desperately required here is to deal with this in a cognitive manner so that he does what is right, because he knows what is good and right and wants to do what is good and right. What is actually being applied is the behavioural model, that he does what his mother wants because if he does not do it, he will be punished. This is how to bring up a dog, which will never know right from wrong. Humans are different and have the capacity to know right from wrong and to choose to do right. Humans should be brought up accordingly.

DVardysShadow

faerie~spangles wrote: »

He lied about where he was staying overnight?

He got pi£$ed and possibly had a toke on a spliff?


You can jump up and down and lay down the rules.

Or tell him that he is responsible for his actions. He and he alone is answerable.

His body, his choice.

And an ounce of help in dealing with that outline of the human condition is worth a pound of punishment, which leaves you with a moral compass which says that you do as your mother says and if you avoid listening to her, the moral compass points wherever you like.

poet123

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Let me try and clear something up a little further. You seem to have got hung up on the outcome of continuing with the punishment system as having the likely result that he will pick on younger children. What you are failing to recognise is that I am not saying that this behaviour is inevitable - or even probable. I am only giving this possibility as just one of a broad range of possible unpredicted and negative consequences of continuing with the punishment system.

Well anything is possible as an outcome, but you have to hope as a parent that this is just a blip and that all the years of positive reinforcement will out.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Now, my hypothesis is no more and no less a hypothesis than the majority hypothesis on this thread, that you work your way out of this problem by punishment. I am certainly not saying "that if he is behaving this way at 14 it is too late to effect change". The risk is not so much that continuing with punishment will not produce change - more that the results will become decreasingly predictable and increasingly negative.

Of course it is a fine line and needs the judgement of Solomon to ensure you do not push them away rather than gather them in when they are behaving in this way. I go back to my previous point here though, if they have up to this point been brought up to respect others and know right from wrong it will come through.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Most interventions will achieve change, but making punishment as the first resort will usually go past its sell by date with any growing person at some point. I do not know how old you are, poet [and we don't need to know] - but if your mother was still punishing you to make you conform to her behavioural agenda, you would be on here as one messed up individual.

Does any good parent use punishment as a first resort? Surely talking and reasoning come first? And should continue, regardless of whatever other sanctions are put in place.

There is of course a gradual cut off point where "punishment" is no longer a viable concept. but at 14 it is still a useful tool albeit ne that I agree is tapering off even at that age.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Indeed, at some point, if a growing person at some point in their later development were not to change from complying as a result of punishment being meted out at some point in the transition to adulthood you would say something is wrong. And at some point, you need that person to behave in a certain way without the need for application of punishment in order to live a successful life.

I would agree with this, and in fact I hate the word punishment and wouldn't ever use it in connection with a teenager. I would refer to it more in the way of taking away privileges.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

14 is young to be making a transition to adulthood, but among the underclass, there seems to be a transition to independence in early teens - hence the gang culture. Obviously, this is not the same as a transition to full responsible adulthood, but once started, you cannot put the genie back in the bottle - if the butterfly starts to come out of the chrysalis too early, with its wings less than fully formed, you cannot force it back to make its wings form fully in the chrysalis.

Again, I agree, you cannot start to parent a 14 year old, the ground rules need to be in place from the early years.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

When you say that you have to work with what you have, it seems that the majority view here is that you only have punishment. What you actually have is a 14 year old who unfortunately has embarked on the transition to independence too early, who needs help to be able to cope with independence and who needs a home where he would rather be, than out with his undesirable mates.

Again, I agree, which is why I said in my first post that I wouldn't remove his PS3, I would leave it as a source of keeping him at home, and would encourage desirable lads round to play on that with him. Nor would I fill his time with chores. There is a fine line between ensuring he knows and understands why you are angry and disappointed and acting in a manner which completely alienates him.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Mother out till the early hours to find him and stressing about how she is going to punish him is sending out a strong message that mother's love in searching for him is actually motivated by the desire to punish him. It is going to make home a more deeply unattractive place, which is the opposite of what is needed.

I think deep down most kids know what would have motivated a mother to act like that. They may want to think she is doing it to spoil their fun or to punish, but if they come from a loving background they will know.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

In psychological terms, what is desperately required here is to deal with this in a cognitive manner so that he does what is right, because he knows what is good and right and wants to do what is good and right. What is actually being applied is the behavioural model, that he does what his mother wants because if he does not do it, he will be punished. This is how to bring up a dog, which will never know right from wrong. Humans are different and have the capacity to know right from wrong and to choose to do right. Humans should be brought up accordingly.

Again, we are in agreement, but you cannot start that process at 14 when independence is looming, it is too late. He is being led astray from all accounts, so you have to bring him back to the path you (hopefully) put him on in early life and allow him to understand what deviating from that can mean for him. To emphasise the point the privileges go, for a time.

The single most important thing with teens though is keeping the lines of communication open and giving them a sense of unconditional love. You still love them, even if you are disappointed and hurt by how they have chosen to act. If you can manage that they will know deep down that anything you do stems from that and that ultimately you do have their best interests at heart.

DVardysShadow

poet123 wrote: »

There is of course a gradual cut off point where "punishment" is no longer a viable concept. but at 14 it is still a useful tool albeit ne that I agree is tapering off even at that age.

Again, I agree, you cannot start to parent a 14 year old, the ground rules need to be in place from the early years.



Again, I agree, which is why I said in my first post that I wouldn't remove his PS3, I would leave it as a source of keeping him at home, and would encourage desirable lads round to play on that with him. Nor would I fill his time with chores. There is a fine line between ensuring he knows and understands why you are angry and disappointed and acting in a manner which completely alienates him.


Again, we are in agreement, but you cannot start that process at 14 when independence is looming, it is too late. He is being led astray from all accounts, so you have to bring him back to the path you (hopefully) put him on in early life and allow him to understand what deviating from that can mean for him. To emphasise the point the privileges go, for a time.

I don't think there is a defined age. 14 is the lower end of the scale - but plainly OP's son has reached that point.

However, I would say that this is not the end of the road for parenting. I would urge persisting but recognising that punishment as a tool has probably had its day for this lad.

jellyhead

Adding to Firefox's post about physical activity - my son, who is clumsy and 'rubbish at everything' found that he enjoyed guitar lessons for under-16's at the local college.

It's not physical activity as such, although the walk to college with the guitar and amp isn't something I'd volunteer for on a Saturday morning - but it made him feel good about himself and he wanted to go to those lessons so badly that he turned down party invitations from the 'bad crowd' on Friday nights and became known as the goody 2-shoes, but in a friendly way. He stayed on the outskirts of their friendship group but they knew he'd rarely stay with them at night.

Although the 'bad crowd' scared me with their dangerous behaviour, my son saw no wrong in them. They are nice enough lads with values of their own - they are loyal, they have good relationships with their parents even if I personally think their parents are lazy and rubbish, they protect little sisters, etc ... in the teenage boy's eyes there's nothing BAD about these boys.

So, unless they do anything illegal, the boy isn't going to understand why the parent is so down on them. Drinking and drugs at 14 probably just seems exciting to them at that age, and they are unlikely to know anybody who had died from it, or to realise how much the life of the local drug dealer has changed since those days when he was a bright lad at university. They don't really understand why the thought of a 14 year old getting drunk and possibly trying drugs would make a parent so scared that they'd walk the streets at 3am looking for them, just in case 'something happened'.

School teaches them about the risks, but those tables show alcohol and cigarettes as being much more dangerous than a spliff, so the teenager thinks you're a hypocrite unless you're teetotal yourself, or thinks you are not clever enough to understand that dope is 'safer' than a night at the pub ... and if they think you're stupid and wrong on that count why would they listen to anything else you try to educate them about. You're old, it's a different world ...

If you take away the phone and playstation and tell them that's how life will be if they don't pass their GCSEs because they were too busy partying, they think you're just being an intellectual snob and are looking down on the parents of the kids who are always drunk.

No parent is perfect, most of us find out what works and what doesn't along the way. Reconnecting and talking got us further than punishment and shouting.

The bottom line is what you really want is for them to make the proper choices for themselves once they are old enough, so talk about WHY you're so upset at the thought of him smoking spliffs and hanging around with people who are known to the police.

lovesabargain123

Thank you everyone, will have a good read of the posts later x

Blackpool_Saver

Northern_Princess wrote: »

I would have every luxury he has off him ie PS3, phone, tv, laptop, he would have no internet access. I would also ground him until further notice from you or OH. His grounded time would be filled with studying or jobs I would find for him. He would be sat down and told what is acceptable and not acceptable, I would also be reminding him what the word respect means.

Hmmm, I read your post further down the list, you say you were able to do this yourself with no back up eh? hmmmmmm, well I couldn't do it with a full size man of nearly 14-15, he simply took the things back off me. I wasn't just a divorced mother I was also totally without any family back up at all, so there were no Grandparents either, no aunts and uncles either to call on. And to be honest a girl is very different from a boy.

Blackpool_Saver

The above post is related to this:Originally Posted by Blackpool_Saver
I'll bet all you "hard line" takers have another parent to back you up. Try doing all this on your own, I was driving round all night looking for my son, going to places where they thought I was a social worker they were that scary, it was 2 years of hell, thankfully now he has come through it and can see they were wronguns, but it was only because I kept on and on and would not give up and leave him to his own devices. It nearly saw me off, but we came through it, and I did it alone.........

edited to add, the police were useless, they took him back to the bad places

Reply by Northern Princess
Actually, I was a single parent up to 2 years ago. So all us 'hard line takers' never had another parent to back us up! I have brought my daughter up on my own from she was very young when her father died. I am glad your son has come through his wrong doing, but please do not pull the 'single parent' line.

danlojo

Give him a copy of this :

My promise to my children.

I am not your friend.
I am your mum.
I will stalk you, flip out on you, lecture you, drive you insane, be your worst nightmare & hunt you down like a bloodhound when needed because I LOVE YOU!
When you understand that, I will know you are a responsible adult. You will NEVER find someone who loves, prays, cares and worries about you more than I do!