Suitable punishment for eldest son...

DVardysShadow

lamplady wrote: »

I'm a foster carer and deal with this sort of thing a lot. While I would sanction - maybe swapping the blackberry for a basic payg and banning sleepovers for a while, I think the most important this is to reconnect rather than disconnect. Making a teen's life miserable just makes the undesirables seem more desirable. With my teen boys I go wild camping, play them On their xbOx, cook with them and above all look for ways to make them feel better about themselves, trying to mOtivate them so they have reasons to behave rather than go wild. It can be worth getting in touch with your local youth offending service as they often have prevention programmes, parental support and really good activity programmes for teens on the cusp of badness

This to my mind is about the only sane response on this thread.

At age 14, a lad is becoming independent and the old ways of dealing with a younger child will become increasingly inappropriate. Particularly, if you pile on the work chores and take away the gadgets at home, he will find home increasingly unattractive and the parents not nice to be with. In short, the punishments may actually encourage the behaviour you are seeking to suppress.

In the extreme, this could have forseeable unintended consequences - such as if his phone is taken off him, this is actually a disrespect of his rights in property and he may see it as justifying stealing a phone off someone younger and weaker. After all if you steal off him, it is OK for him to do it. I am not saying that this will definitely happen. I am saying that if you go down this road, the reaction could be quite negative and unpredictable.

Alfie Kohn has been mentioned on this forum before and I would like to give a link to a short paragraph in wikipedia on what he ahs to say about parenting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Kohn#Views_on_parenting

There is this little snippet 'Kohn argues for an approach he calls "working with", as distinguished from "doing to". The latter is exemplified by punishments and rewards, and, more generally, a focus on behavior rather than on the motives and values that underlie behavior.' In essence what has happened with OP's son is that a point very near the end of the road for punishment and reward has been reached. And OP has actually failed to instill a value system in her son in which he has internalised values which prevent him from participating in the behaviour.

OP's opening question is 'Suitable punishment?' While punishment may be a tool to achieve a result, punishment is never an end in itself. Punishment as an end in itself must fail because there are no success criteria

Dealing with this problem involves identifying the desired outcome. And I think the outcome will be far more positive if half the thought going into a 'suitable punishment' is actually put to working out a desired outcome. Once the desired outcome is understood, you are in a much better place to work out how to achieve that objective

poet123

DVardysShadow wrote: »

In the extreme, this could have forseeable unintended consequences - such as if his phone is taken off him, this is actually a disrespect of his rights in property and he may see it as justifying stealing a phone off someone younger and weaker. After all if you steal off him, it is OK for him to do it. I am not saying that this will definitely happen. I am saying that if you go down this road, the reaction could be quite negative and unpredictable.

With respect that comment is ridiculous. Removing a phone for bad behaviour is not stealing from him, especially as it is likely the parent foots the bill for both handset and calls. It is removing a privilege nothing more.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

And OP has actually failed to instill a value system in her son in which he has internalised values which prevent him from participating in the behaviour.

I agree with that, if they behave in this way at 14 there is an issue with parenting, but pointing that out may not be particularly helpful at this juncture.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Dealing with this problem involves identifying the desired outcome. And I think the outcome will be far more positive if half the thought going into a 'suitable punishment' is actually put to working out a desired outcome. Once the desired outcome is understood, you are in a much better place to work out how to achieve that objective

The desired outcome is surely obvious? The lad sees that he is on a slippery slope and mends his ways. Simple to say but not simple to effect.

DVardysShadow

poet123 wrote: »

With respect that comment is ridiculous. Removing a phone for bad behaviour is not stealing from him, especially as it is likely the parent foots the bill for both handset and calls. It is removing a privilege nothing more.

Far from ridiculous - although I can see why you said that. It is due to giving a less than full explanation. Seem from the lad's perspective, it could be stealing from him. If it has been given to him, rather than lent, he has every right to regard it as property.

But however and whatever you argue it to be, it is value neutral in relation to the bigger argument - if it enters his head that he has been deprived of something and his upbringing has left him a bit short of internalised values, whatever he sees his parents do to him, just because they are bigger and stronger, he could see as justification to doing to a waeker child.

So if we agree his parents are stealing from him, he could see that as justification to steal from another child. If we agree instead that his parents are removing privileges from him, he could see that as justification to remove privileges from another child. While the polemics might change, the outcome would be the same. I'm not stuck on the word steal - it is a waste of time arguing about. The important point is that the proposed punishments could have unintended negative consequences - and I am only proposing this as one possible argument.

poet123 wrote: »

.... The desired outcome is surely obvious? The lad sees that he is on a slippery slope and mends his ways. Simple to say but not simple to effect.

You would hope that the desired outcome would be obvious. But from the very initial statement of the problem[ 'a suitable punishment?'], I doubt that the outcome has really been thought about. I think that OP's desired outcome is that the lad does as he is told - because she is approaching this from a punishment-reward perspective.

But from a much earlier age than 14, merely doing as you are told is far from adequate -and by age 14, doing as you are told is well past its sell by date.

The outcome that I would desire is that the lad would be able to identify who are good friends to be with and what activities are enjoyable and safe.

DVardysShadow

poet123 wrote: »

DVardysShadow wrote: »

And OP has actually failed to instill a value system in her son in which he has internalised values which prevent him from participating in the behaviour.

I agree with that, if they behave in this way at 14 there is an issue with parenting, but pointing that out may not be particularly helpful at this juncture.

Seeing as this issue probably only brewing since the lad was 8, perhaps we should wait until he is 23 before making the comment? And even then, only after inspecting the stables and bolting the doors on all those that are empty?

OP is asking now. Now is the time to tell OP - although I can accept it might not be favourably received.

Dumbe

I agree with some of the other posters...
Ground him, take away all electronic devices,, gradually return for good behavior

Explaining a repeat will mean said device being confiscated again and not returned ever.

poet123

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Far from ridiculous - although I can see why you said that. It is due to giving a less than full explanation. Seem from the lad's perspective, it could be stealing from him. If it has been given to him, rather than lent, he has every right to regard it as property.

But however and whatever you argue it to be, it is value neutral in relation to the bigger argument - if it enters his head that he has been deprived of something and his upbringing has left him a bit short of internalised values, whatever he sees his parents do to him, just because they are bigger and stronger, he could see as justification to doing to a waeker child.

So if we agree his parents are stealing from him, he could see that as justification to steal from another child. If we agree instead that his parents are removing privileges from him, he could see that as justification to remove privileges from another child. While the polemics might change, the outcome would be the same. I'm not stuck on the word steal - it is a waste of time arguing about. The important point is that the proposed punishments could have unintended negative consequences - and I am only proposing this as one possible argument.


You would hope that the desired outcome would be obvious. But from the very initial statement of the problem[ 'a suitable punishment?'], I doubt that the outcome has really been thought about. I think that OP's desired outcome is that the lad does as he is told - because she is approaching this from a punishment-reward perspective.

But from a much earlier age than 14, merely doing as you are told is far from adequate -and by age 14, doing as you are told is well past its sell by date.

The outcome that I would desire is that the lad would be able to identify who are good friends to be with and what activities are enjoyable and safe.

So, basically you are saying that if he is behaving this way at 14 it is too late to effect change? If you take your hypothesis to the fullest extent, you would never punish or sanction any teenager lest they see that as the green light to inflict the same on a younger more vulnerable child. Obviously that cannot be right. Sanctions have to be used, although I do agree that by 14 if such behaviour is happening there are issues which have not been addressed, but saying that is not helpful to the OP.

You have to work with what you have, this is what it is, and in order to prevent even more issues arising you have to take a firm line.

*zippy*

I didn't take DVardysShadow post that way poet, more think about your parenting goals and work towards them rather than use punishments.

I think though the problem with punishments is not about them then doing it to others, but more you end up in a negative non-constructive cycle. Some posters are suggesting taking everything away, where does that leave you when it doesn't work, one angry teen and nothing left to barter with.

Personally though I would be careful with getting parenting advice off a forum, it's better to talk to parents you respect who have been there and done that and you can see how their kids turned out.

Northern_Princess

I probably should have said this on my previous post, but a year ago my DD (who was 15 at the time) told me she was staying with a named friend that she had stayed over night with on numerous occasions. I knew the friends mum so thought nothing of DD staying over again. A week later on speaking to friends mum it transpired they had both stayed with another girl (who was having a houseparty as her parents were away for the night) and told both of us they were staying with each other :eek: On finding this piece of information out when DD returned home from school that day she returned to no PS3, no xbox, no laptop, no internet access, no tv in her room, her contract phone was replaced by a PAYG phone and pocket money ceased. I will not be taken for a fool by a 15 year old :mad: All the begging the the world would not have made me return the removed items (and there was plenty of it from her). Some may think I was strict on doing this to her but it proved it's point. A year down the line I know exactly where she is on a Friday and Saturday night. She now has to supply a landline number for me to call to contact her and I call the parents before she goes if she is staying over at someone else's house. Likewise I insist anyone staying over at our house does the same and I call the parents if they haven't called me to make sure they know where their 'little darling' is as some of her friends are under 16. The way I see it is if they are under my roof it is my rules. We had a long talk about respect after this incident and what it means. I respect DD very much as she does me, we have boundaries and yes she is now an adult being 16 but as I said as long as she is under my roof she will abide by simple rules of the house. I do believe the incident last year and losing all the luxurys was a huge shock to DD and from that she appreciated what she has. She is very open now about where she goes, what she gets up to and any problems she has. Sometimes the short sharp shock treatment is needed and it worked for us

Blackpool_Saver

I'll bet all you "hard line" takers have another parent to back you up. Try doing all this on your own, I was driving round all night looking for my son, going to places where they thought I was a social worker they were that scary, it was 2 years of hell, thankfully now he has come through it and can see they were wronguns, but it was only because I kept on and on and would not give up and leave him to his own devices. It nearly saw me off, but we came through it, and I did it alone.........

edited to add, the police were useless, they took him back to the bad places

faerie~spangles

He lied about where he was staying overnight?

He got pi£$ed and possibly had a toke on a spliff?


You can jump up and down and lay down the rules.

Or tell him that he is responsible for his actions. He and he alone is answerable.

His body, his choice.