Choice of intelligent switches ?

EricMears

The_Green_Man wrote: »

Ah, maturity curve. Any idea when a PV panel will be cheap enough to instal without a subsidy?

At the present rate of progress, probably within the next few years.

Solar Panels have been readily available since the 1950s and without the FIT scheme they were still extortionately expensive in 1997. At that point it would have taken 400 years of generation to earn the installation cost. I'm not quite so certain of the economics of the things in 2009 but could see no way that they'd return enough to earn the installation cost within the expected lifetime of the equipment.

The_Green_Man_2

EricMears wrote: »

At the present rate of progress, probably within the next few years.

Solar Panels have been readily available since the 1950s and without the FIT scheme they were still extortionately expensive in 1997. At that point it would have taken 400 years of generation to earn the installation cost. I'm not quite so certain of the economics of the things in 2009 but could see no way that they'd return enough to earn the installation cost within the expected lifetime of the equipment.

And all because a few wealthy individuals in the UK stuck them on their roof tops. Amazing!

EricMears

The_Green_Man wrote: »

And all because a few wealthy individuals in the UK stuck them on their roof tops. Amazing!

You've failed to grasp the point again.

The scheme is not restricted to the UK or to the wealthy.

The UK scheme is a (small) part of an EU scheme and similar schemes exist on other continents.

You don't have to be 'wealthy' to but solar panels. When I fitted mine, the cost was about the same as a modest family car. Currently you can fit a SP system for less than the cost of the cheapest new car.

Lots of 'non-wealthy' people have £5k in savings. Even more could arrange to extend their mortgages to borrow enough for such an installation at well under the rate of return they could expect. The really 'poor' who own their own homes but can't raise the finance could make some return from a 'rent a roof' scheme although that wouldn't be my choice.

The_Green_Man_2

EricMears wrote: »

You've failed to grasp the point again.

No you've missed the point, perhaps intentionally.

Getting back to the discussion, you said that PV will soon be affordable without FIT payments and that "Solar Panels have been readily available since the 1950s and without the FIT scheme they were still extortionately expensive in 1997. At that point it would have taken 400 years of generation to earn the installation cost. I'm not quite so certain of the economics of the things in 2009 but could see no way that they'd return enough to earn the installation cost within the expected lifetime of the equipment."

I find it astonishing that progress has moved so rapidly from the 400 years payback in 1997 to economically viable 'in a few years' and all because of a few people sticking them on their UK rooftops.

Isnt the UK amazing to have this sort of influence in the world!

tunnel

The_Green_Man wrote: »

No you've missed the point, perhaps intentionally.

Getting back to the discussion, you said that PV will soon be affordable without FIT payments and that "Solar Panels have been readily available since the 1950s and without the FIT scheme they were still extortionately expensive in 1997. At that point it would have taken 400 years of generation to earn the installation cost. I'm not quite so certain of the economics of the things in 2009 but could see no way that they'd return enough to earn the installation cost within the expected lifetime of the equipment."

I find it astonishing that progress has moved so rapidly from the 400 years payback in 1997 to economically viable 'in a few years' and all because of a few people sticking them on their UK rooftops.

Isnt the UK amazing to have this sort of influence in the world![/QUOTE]

Maybe its the world having an influence on the UK,there's not just the UK that pays FITS. I would image global demand has helped to push down the price of panels to get us close to the point where FITs can be withdrawn.

The_Green_Man_2

tunnel wrote: »

Maybe its the world having an influence on the UK,there's not just the UK that pays FITS. I would image global demand has helped to push down the price of panels to get us close to the point where FITs can be withdrawn.

Quite so. So why introduce fits in the UK at all? Why not just wait for prices to fall to a level where those who want PV can install it without being subsidised?

Moreover, why introduce a scheme that pays back PV over 8 years and yet runs for 20 years giving a tidy, inflation linked profit? I thought we were all about adopting 'green' technologies, not making investment returns?

tunnel

The_Green_Man wrote: »

Quite so. So why introduce fits in the UK at all? Why not just wait for prices to fall to a level where those who want PV can install it without being subsidised?

Moreover, why introduce a scheme that pays back PV over 8 years and yet runs for 20 years giving a tidy, inflation linked profit? I thought we were all about adopting 'green' technologies, not making investment returns?

If we had have waited, then there's a possibility of never getting to a point of non subsidised PV. fact is we do have a subsidy, love or hate it, its here and those that have taken up on it have helped to bring the price down to the masses rather than the few.

Who knows, in 5-10 years, maybe the government at the time will offer free solar PV like they do with certain types of insulation as they do now, you just never know in this fast changing world

Martyn1981

The_Green_Man wrote: »

Quite so. So why introduce fits in the UK at all? Why not just wait for prices to fall to a level where those who want PV can install it without being subsidised?

Since you are lecturing us on what is green and ethical, let's just revue that shall we:

So you want other countries to do the heavy lifting? Why should the UK be excused from doing its share? Since the industrial revolution pretty much started here, that seems a little unethical.

The longer we delay acting, the longer before CO2 emissions are reduced, and the longer before a PV industry is established, that seems a little ungreen.


Now, back to my earlier question which you are still avoiding answering:

The_Green_Man wrote: »

Where in that text did I mention that subsidies should go to large companies instead of the British poor

It's you who need to actually read other people's posts more carefully.

So yet again, you keep building the strawman that I mentioned it's ok to pay subsidies to large companies but not to the poor. I haven't. I keep saying that it's morally and ethically wrong for everyone, especially those who can least afford it to pay a subsidy that further enriches wealthy individuals.

Argue against that instead of building your strawmen.

So, to repeat, you agree with subsidising renewables (or possibly you don't) but you don't want the subsidies to go to households, so the alternative is for it to all go to companies (no households) which you do agree with (or possibly don't)?

Perhaps it would be simpler if you'd just spell out exactly which renewable generation subsidies you do agree with, and who are the acceptable recipients?

Mart.

EricMears

The_Green_Man wrote: »

Quite so. So why introduce fits in the UK at all? Why not just wait for prices to fall to a level where those who want PV can install it without being subsidised?

Moreover, why introduce a scheme that pays back PV over 8 years and yet runs for 20 years giving a tidy, inflation linked profit? I thought we were all about adopting 'green' technologies, not making investment returns?

And if the Germans, the French etc etc had all thought the same, costs of SPs would have remained high. We can feel proud that a number of governments have banded together to attain a difficult goal. Who knows what else a similar effort might achieve ? World peace; freedom from hunger; voyages to other planetary systems . . .

Without the incentive of investment returns, very few would have adopted the new technology. They'd just be sitting around waiting for somebody else to do soomething.

counting_down_the_days...

Hi,

Sorry to interrupt the debate... I'm also thinking of going for the Solar Immersion. Has anyone got figures to report back yet?

Thanks