Can employee be sacked for being a few minutes late?

fishybusiness

I tend to agree that instant dismissal is way too harsh.

Employee's can explain away the odd late start, and in practice it can mean getting in to the habit of writing 9.03am on a time sheet when 9am is the official start time. It happened alot on the world I worked in.
However, leaving 8 minutes early on the other hand is just plain wrong, and demands a formal warning.

If I was the boss, I would have the employee's timekeeping records checked, and watch him for a couple of weeks to get an idea of his timekeeping habits.

I'd also consider if I really wanted to lose the person, and their skills.

As others have already said, the persons personal life may be a problem, although not your problem, it maybe a retrievable situation for you - a chat and a warning may be enough.

duchy

Good advice -and the same route I'd take. I suspect Mike is very very new to any management role from his posts.

SandC

What's the point of having gross misconduct if people are not going to do what is usually done in circumstances where this occurs - and dismiss the employee.

If someone had an unblemished record of 5 years then got into an argument with someone and punched them would that not warrant dismissal either just because they'd been good in the past?

Falsifying timesheets is a very serious matter.

And it's also not unusual for someone to face disciplinary measures (even sacking) when others have done similar - if they were the ones caught and nothing can be pinned on others...

OP is merely after opinions remember - this is not an expert HR advice portal, it's a forum. I don't see anything wrong with that. Sometimes gives a different perspective on things when all you may be hearing is a one sided view from the persons involved.

liney

Whilst falsifying a timesheet is gross misconduct and the employer would be within their rights to dismiss, they are not obliged to.

In a circumstance where there is long service, unblemished record, and no actual harm has come to anyone, a discussion and written warning may be more appropriate.

Also a reitteration of the company time keeping policy to all staff, and perhaps an introduction of regular random 'spot checks' via the CCTV and timesheets to ensure that all staff are complying with the policy.

Incidently, if the staff member arrived at 9.05 and left at 4.52 would you expect to pay those actual hours or 9.15 to 4.45 ? That needs to be pointed out in the policy.

sniggings

p00hsticks wrote: »

What no one seems to have picked up on so far is that, according to the OPs first post, this all came to light when the persons co-workers complained to management. Unless there's some underlying personal axes to grind, I'd have thought that the guy must be seriously 'swinging the lead' for it to have warranted his colleagues going to management about it, and management need to respond in some way to acknowledge that.

That action could be anything from a general 'reminder' to the workforce as a whole about the need for accurate timekeeping and working your contracted hours through a written warning to dismissal.

Someone did.

Just to add to the OP, you should have a chat with the guy first, he could have child care issues or any other number of problems, also you need to consider if this has been going on for a while your employee may have felt his few minutes lateness was not a problem, I think it only fair to have warned him this was a problem before sacking him.

Cos lets be real here, it's not about "stealing" 16 minutes but the lateness that is the issue.

sniggings

thegirlintheattic wrote: »

I'm sorry but problems at home/with colleagues does not mean that you can falsify your timesheet.

Falsifying timesheet = gross misconduct.

You don't even know if this guy is on a salary, he could be paid for 40 hours a week no matter what he puts on the timesheet, he could also only be docked for a full 15 mins late, I know my last place of work, the time sheet was mainly used just to say you were there, lateness could not be deducted from your wage, you either made the time up or got a warning if it happened a lot.

sniggings

SandC wrote: »

What's the point of having gross misconduct if people are not going to do what is usually done in circumstances where this occurs - and dismiss the employee.

If someone had an unblemished record of 5 years then got into an argument with someone and punched them would that not warrant dismissal either just because they'd been good in the past?

Falsifying timesheets is a very serious matter.

And it's also not unusual for someone to face disciplinary measures (even sacking) when others have done similar - if they were the ones caught and nothing can be pinned on others...

OP is merely after opinions remember - this is not an expert HR advice portal, it's a forum. I don't see anything wrong with that. Sometimes gives a different perspective on things when all you may be hearing is a one sided view from the persons involved.

steal 1p and I bet you don't go to jail, steal £50,000 from your employer and chances are you will. There are levels of offence, the law and work rules need to be applied with a little common sense.

Was this guy trying to steal time or just cover up his lateness, are employees allowed to leave work early if their work is done? these are the questions I would be asking.

sniggings

liney wrote: »

Whilst falsifying a timesheet is gross misconduct and the employer would be within their rights to dismiss, they are not obliged to.

In a circumstance where there is long service, unblemished record, and no actual harm has come to anyone, a discussion and written warning may be more appropriate.

Also a reitteration of the company time keeping policy to all staff, and perhaps an introduction of regular random 'spot checks' via the CCTV and timesheets to ensure that all staff are complying with the policy.

Incidently, if the staff member arrived at 9.05 and left at 4.52 would you expect to pay those actual hours or 9.15 to 4.45 ? That needs to be pointed out in the policy.

sorry I'm posting a lot here, I hate daytime TV

Anyone know the rules on CCTV, I was under the impression that it could not be used to check on stuff sach as lateness etc?

I know when at my work place we had cameras fitted there were a lot of rules relating to them, or at least that is what the word around the office was. They could not be on all the time and could only be used for a limited range of reasons? generally watching the staff was not allowed.?

Interested to know if anyone knows.

colino

What is the point of a timesheet? For someone to personally account for their time. By altering the truth here they have uttered a false instrument and as well as getting slung straight out of the door, the employer should be considering proper criminal charges for the potential theft.
Sadly this goes on to often and breeds a whole lot of anger and mistrust in a workforce where a) it happens and b) the offender gets away with it.
Recently I was working with an "agencyised" government department and a lady with 30+ years service in a very low-level admin job bailed out with a huge cheque and lovely pension. That agency allowed flexi-time (nice personal timesheets) and as well as getting a salary based on time served instead of merit, she took days off frequently with her "accumulated flexi". Bearing in mind that I was there to do a fixed price job, I was there for all the office opening hours, and unfortunately was allocated space next to her. Her flexi comprised of turning up between 7.45 and 8.15am, watering the plants, boring the !!!! off of everyone available about the previous nights soaps, frequent wanders round the office (always with the same folder underarm, never opened), countless trips to the loo, fag breaks, 90 minute lunches and ending with "running for an early bus" (every day!) at 4.25pm. She weekly presented her timesheet to her boss for countersignature (the same word document every week!) noting her daily hours starting at 7.30am, 30 minutes for lunch and finishing at 5pm every day. While the department colleagues were delighted to see the back of her, the management were deplorable and couldn't see the harm their mute acceptance of this "common practice" had done.

SandC

sniggings wrote: »

steal 1p and I bet you don't go to jail, steal £50,000 from your employer and chances are you will. There are levels of offence, the law and work rules need to be applied with a little common sense.

Was this guy trying to steal time or just cover up his lateness, are employees allowed to leave work early if their work is done? these are the questions I would be asking.

Agreed re levels of offence and rulings.

Camera was possibly trained on the entrance/exit so they saw what time he arrived and left. In jobs where a timesheet is to be filled in it obviously means something - whether pay is involved or not. Although I do concede that someone may well be inclined to disregard lateness and early finishing as long as it is vaguely within their 9-5 shift timings. He could not have done this with a clocking in system so should not do so with a timesheet either. It is of importance to the employer if not to him.