tennancy agreement and section 21 at same time

sturman

princeofpounds wrote: »

Correct, but it assumes you rental periods start on the 11th of the month? Can you confirm OP?

I'm not sure what op means but our rent day starts 11th of the month. But i will give them notice at least a week before that

Thanks

sturman

franklee wrote: »

Or, especially in the case of an accidental landlord, to sell with vacant possession.

This mucking about with the S21 is not a nice way to treat a tenant as it attempts to deprive them of a proper two months notice. Especially as many accidental landlords do sell sooner or later so the tenant does not know if the S21 will be actioned or not.

Not that this "Sword of Damocles" method of serving the S21 protects the landlord as if there is a year contract the landlord has ten months in which to decide if the tenant is a bad un and serve the S21 to arrive back in the same position. He could put a note in his diary, although if it's a bad tenant I'm sure he would remember to serve the S21 soon enough and he'd stand more chance of it being valid as by then the tenancy will be established, deposit all protected etc. Or if the tenant is really bad early on the landlord can use section 8 without waiting for the end of the fixed term.

So bad tenants end up in the same position precautionary S21 or not, good tenants get shafted by the precautionary S21, or at least have some hassle, and landlords may accidentally lose a good tenant if they obey the S21 without coming somewhere like here first to ask questions. It seems to me the agent is the only one to benefit from the ruse in the charging of more fees.

Summed it up perfectly...If my house purchase falls through i will not stay with this Landlord and will do my best to find somewhere else{as you say the only one smiling is the LA}

lighting_up_the_chalice

sturman wrote: »

I'm not sure what op means but our rent day starts 11th of the month. But i will give them notice at least a week before that

Thanks

Strictly speaking, whenever you leave after the end of the S21 already served, you are just complying with the S21 issued by your LL, so you need not give any further notice yourself and the specific dates certainly aren't overly important. Simply write to the agent advising them when you intend to leave.... That's WRITE..... And keep a copy.

jjlandlord

lighting_up_the_chalice wrote: »

Strictly speaking, whenever you leave after the end of the S21 already served, you are just complying with the S21 issued by your LL, so you need not give any further notice yourself and the specific dates certainly aren't overly important.

As a s.21 notice does not end the tenancy, a tenant following that advice would make a very risky move as the landlord would be in his right to claim a month rent in lieu of notice.

At the very least T should have written surrender agreement from landlord.

It_can_get_better

jjlandlord wrote: »

As a s.21 notice does not end the tenancy, a tenant following that advice would make a very risky move as the landlord would be in his right to claim a month rent in lieu of notice.

At the very least T should have written surrender agreement from landlord.

Seconded. Notice still has to be given by the tenant. Otherwise in the case of a tenant who had been served with a s21 at the start of the tenancy could just leave anytime after the fixed term without giving notice.

franklee

It_can_get_better wrote: »

Seconded. Notice still has to be given by the tenant. Otherwise in the case of a tenant who had been served with a s21 at the start of the tenancy could just leave anytime after the fixed term without giving notice.

Given a landlord in that position can apply to court for a possession order at anytime after the fixed term it seems perverse of him to require the tenant serve out their own notice period concurrently with that, especially as the whole tenant leaving thing was kicked off by the landlord serving the section 21 in the first place. But given landlords can be that perverse it is safer for the tenant to serve their own notice to avoid a landlord who on the one hand is applying for possession and on the other hand wants the tenant to remain or rent in lieu of the tenant's own notice. Frankly if the landlord wants rent, if he wants the tenant to remain then he should not have served the S21 in the first place. Also the landlord has to be careful about insisting the tenant remain in case he voids the S21. Remembering this is asking someone to move home, not a game of musical chairs.

That said the tenant is free to leave at the end of the fixed term and on the date the S21 notice asks without serving notice other than to make clear they've gone in time.

Yorkie1

franklee wrote: »

Given a landlord in that position can apply to court for a possession order at anytime after the fixed term it seems perverse of him to require the tenant serve out their own notice period concurrently with that, especially as the whole tenant leaving thing was kicked off by the landlord serving the section 21 in the first place. But given landlords can be that perverse it is safer for the tenant to serve their own notice to avoid a landlord who on the one hand is applying for possession and on the other hand wants the tenant to remain or rent in lieu of the tenant's own notice. Frankly if the landlord wants rent, if he wants the tenant to remain then he should not have served the S21 in the first place. Also the landlord has to be careful about insisting the tenant remain in case he voids the S21. Remembering this is asking someone to move home, not a game of musical chairs.

That said the tenant is free to leave at the end of the fixed term and on the date the S21 notice asks without serving notice other than to make clear they've gone in time.

I think you appear to have contradicted yourself. The other posters, and it seems also you from your earlier sentences in this post, say that you cannot just leave on the date at the end of the s.21 without giving one's own notice, because the s.21 notice does not end the tenancy.

Now, for the OP, he can leave at the end of the fixed term without giving notice because it's the end of the fixed term. If it coincides with the date on a s.21 notice, then that's all well - but the lack of need to give one's own notice is related to the end of the fixed term, and not based on the s.21 dates.

lighting_up_the_chalice

jjlandlord wrote: »

As a s.21 notice does not end the tenancy, a tenant following that advice would make a very risky move as the landlord would be in his right to claim a month rent in lieu of notice.

At the very least T should have written surrender agreement from landlord.

What?

LL issues S21. T leaves on/after expiry of said S21.

Are you suggesting that every T who is served a S21 should wait until either a court order is obtained, or the LL provides a written surrender agreement?

lighting_up_the_chalice

It_can_get_better wrote: »

Seconded. Notice still has to be given by the tenant. Otherwise in the case of a tenant who had been served with a s21 at the start of the tenancy could just leave anytime after the fixed term without giving notice.

Yup. Even landlords can't have their cake and eat it. If a LL issues a S21, s/he can hardly be surprised when the T acts upon it.

franklee

Yorkie1 wrote: »

I think you appear to have contradicted yourself. The other posters, and it seems also you from your earlier sentences in this post, say that you cannot just leave on the date at the end of the s.21 without giving one's own notice, because the s.21 notice does not end the tenancy.

Now, for the OP, he can leave at the end of the fixed term without giving notice because it's the end of the fixed term. If it coincides with the date on a s.21 notice, then that's all well - but the lack of need to give one's own notice is related to the end of the fixed term, and not based on the s.21 dates.

See the comments from Painsmith (who are well known and well respected solicitors specialising in residential, commercial and agricultural landlord and tenant law in England and Wales) from the link below:

http://blog.painsmith.co.uk/2010/08/23/after-a-section-21-notice-expires/

PainSmith says: 8 April, 2011 at 22:28
Thank you for the query. No you are not required to give notice if you are leaving upon the expiry of the section 21. I assume that it has been served pursuant to a break clause and that it is valid.

PainSmith says: 11 April, 2011 at 16:27
The notices are served by the landlord so it is not a surrender. The notice states that the landlord requires possession on a certain date and the tenant can move out on the said date.

PainSmith says: 12 April, 2011 at 11:35
If a section 21 has been served the tenant can move out without having to serve a notice.

PainSmith says: 27 April, 2011 at 08:22
The tenant’s liability remains until the end of the section 21 period or earlier if they have served notice and it expires sooner.

PainSmith says: 27 April, 2011 at 08:28
If a Landlord serves notice on the Tenant then the Landlord is seeking possession. If the Tenant acts on that notice and leaves on the date specified then its not unilateral surrender. The notice was served by the Landlord and the Tenant has simply acted on it.

If there is time for a tenant to serve their own notice then of course they should. However if the onward property was not secured in time to serve notice (which given a tenant's notice has to end at the end of a period can be almost two months long) but requires a start date convenient for the end of the S21 notice period then why voluntarily give away a months rent which is likely not necessary?

What a tenant should not do is serve their own notice before they have secured anywhere else as holding over on their own notice is expensive. As is finding temporary accommodation and/or temporary storage for their furniture and having to move everything twice. Alternatively taking a substandard new rental instead of taking time to get something decent could be a costly mistake.

If the tenant isn't meeting the S21 notice date then I agree he's best off taking his time to find somewhere and then serving his own notice if he cannot negotiate an appropriate end date with the landlord. In that case I would put any offers and negotiations to leave in writing and if the landlord obstructs the tenant leaving by being awkward about dates I'd be using that as a defence against the S21 costs being awarded against the tenant.

Bear in mind that if a tenant has to let a suitable property go if the landlord won't allow him to leave on a suitable date then the landlord is delaying getting his property back until either the tenant can find somewhere else and serve his own notice or the landlord goes through the courts possession route (which ever comes first).