tennancy agreement and section 21 at same time

jjlandlord

lighting_up_the_chalice wrote: »

What?

LL issues S21. T leaves on/after expiry of said S21.

Are you suggesting that every T who is served a S21 should wait until either a court order is obtained, or the LL provides a written surrender agreement?

When a tenant wants a tenancy to end (other than the expiry of a fixed term tenancy) he must serve valid notice to quit or agree a surrender with the landlord.

As mentioned in post #21 above, with the dates stated by OP, here he cannot serve a valid notice to quit.
So any notice must be formally accepted by the landlord, which will create an agreement to surrender.

jjlandlord

Just realised that one must careful consider each word of Painsmith's comments:

franklee wrote: »

PainSmith says: 8 April, 2011 at 22:28
Thank you for the query. No you are not required to give notice if you are leaving upon the expiry of the section 21. I assume that it has been served pursuant to a break clause and that it is valid.

If a s.21 notice is used to activate a break clause then it will end the fixed term tenancy on expiry. Hence the tenant can leave at that point without further notice.
This has all to do with the break clause ending the tenancy and nothing to do with the s.21 notice in general.

princeofpounds

I'm not sure what op means but our rent day starts 11th of the month. But i will give them notice at least a week before that

I am not asking when the rent is due, that is irrelevant to notices. I am asking when the periods start. I.e. what day of the month did your tenancy begin?

jjlandlord

princeofpounds wrote: »

I am not asking when the rent is due, that is irrelevant to notices. I am asking when the periods start. I.e. what day of the month did your tenancy begin?

What is relevant is when the fixed term tenancy will end. OP said it will be 10/08.

franklee

jjlandlord wrote: »

Just realised that one must careful consider each word of Painsmith's comments:



If a s.21 notice is used to activate a break clause then it will end the fixed term tenancy on expiry. Hence the tenant can leave at that point without further notice.
This has all to do with the break clause ending the tenancy and nothing to do with the s.21 notice in general.

That one comment about the break clause is in answer to Caetano's question asked in the comments on 8 April, 2011 at 20:00. If you read all the comments through you will see it's a discussion like here where new people pop up and ask their own related questions and some of those are answered. So for example Painsmith's answer written on 9 November, 2010 at 00:28 "Where a tenant moves out on the expiry of a s21 notice they are voluntarily giving up the property which ends the tenancy under s5 Housing Act 1988." is not in answer to the break clause question clearly written some months before that question was even asked.

I gave the link so folks can read it for themselves should they wish ... and IMO is is worth reading it all through.

jjlandlord

Except that s.5 does not say anything of the sort...

OK we've had this 'discussion' many times and every time you only come up with the same unclear comments from PainSmith.
To make your point you should find better sources, imo.

LittleMissAspie

I'm pretty sure they can't use your deposit for any legal fees, only for fixing up the house to the way it was when you moved in. Beware of them making up any old rubbish about you leaving the house in a bad state. Take clear photos after you've cleaned and make sure you cover your back.

lighting_up_the_chalice

jjlandlord wrote: »

When a tenant wants a tenancy to end (other than the expiry of a fixed term tenancy) he must serve valid notice to quit or agree a surrender with the landlord.

As mentioned in post #21 above, with the dates stated by OP, here he cannot serve a valid notice to quit.
So any notice must be formally accepted by the landlord, which will create an agreement to surrender.

By serving a S21, the LL has already indicated that he wants the tenancy to end. By leaving on/after the expiry of the S21, the T is complying with the LLs wishes. Having been served a valid S21, the T need serve no additional notice.

Your argument would suggest that unless the T serves notice or gets a written agreement from the LL, their liability for rent continues, potentially, for evermore regardless of the existence of a S21.

DVardysShadow

This idea that T musty issue his own notice of quitting if he complies with a S21 notice is IMO substantially insane.

In the normal run of things, LL serves notice just before the start of Month 0. That leaves 2 possible dates on which T may quit - before the start of month 1 and before the start of month 2. If LL serves the notice in good time, there is just about time for T to quit just before the start of month 0.

When you look at rent being paid on time, T will have paid to the end of month 1 almost certainly. And when it comes to finding a new place, T will be unlikely to find a new place in time to give full notice to leave at the end of month 1. So effectively, there is no benefit to T of even looking until just before month 2 if he has to give his own notice. Which largely IMO defeats the point of giving T 2 month's notice.

As I see it, if T has found somewhere within month 1 , the idea of T having to give notice effectively binds T to pay month 2, which I seriously doubt was ever the intention.

As I see it, the only sane way for this to work is that in response to S21 T informs LL of surrender date [note not asks!] which can be either end of month 1 or end of month 2 - once he has an onward move planned. And LL should have the grace to accept the Vacant Possession he has sought.