tennancy agreement and section 21 at same time

sturman

A year ago i rented a property which came with an AST which expires in a year 11/8/11 to 11/8/12. I presumed that at the end of this contract like all AST's I would have to be given at least 2 month to leave, However the letting agent has said i have to leave on 14//08/12[4 weeks time]. They claimed that i have been served a Secton 21 notice to quit.When i checked my folder with all the AST and assorted paraphernalia, I came across a section 21 Notice to Quit that had been issued at the same time as the AST one year ago. I had no knowledge of this notice it was just bundled with everything else.

The AST says nothing about what happens when the term ends and you're not in contract.My fear is that after the expiry of the contract they will use my deposit for court costs to evict me.
We have always paid our rent direct to the Landlord and never been one day late or even ask for things to be repaired.

We have three kids and find this really distressing

Any help appreciated

Stur

ll123_2

The notice would have only been valid if it was served after you signed your tenancy agreement and after the landlord protected the deposit.

Go back and check all the dates. Most landlords who use this approach are caught out by this.

If the dates are incorrect they Section 21 will be thrown out by the court, then they will have to reserve you another 2 month Section 21 notice.

If the dates are correct, you still have time. The landlord will still need to apply for a court order to remove you from the property which will surely take longer than 4 weeks.

rpc

So the S21 was neither issued after the tenancy agreement was signed (by at least one day) nor was it issued after you received the prescribed information about your protected deposit?

Not valid if either of the above are true. That doesn't mean they can't get you out, just that it will take longer and they will have to reissue notice.

Are you sure of your tenancy dates? The tenancy would not be 11th August to 11th August if it was for 12 months - it would be 11th August to 10th August. Where does the 14th come into it? What dates are on the AST and what dates are on the S21 (including dates of signing/issue)?

James_N

sturman wrote: »

A year ago i rented a property which came with an AST which expires in a year 11/8/11 to 11/8/12. I presumed that at the end of this contract like all AST's I would have to be given at least 2 month to leave, However the letting agent has said i have to leave on 14//08/12[4 weeks time]. They claimed that i have been served a Secton 21 notice to quit.When i checked my folder with all the AST and assorted paraphernalia, I came across a section 21 Notice to Quit that had been issued at the same time as the AST one year ago. I had no knowledge of this notice it was just bundled with everything else.

The AST says nothing about what happens when the term ends and you're not in contract.My fear is that after the expiry of the contract they will use my deposit for court costs to evict me.
We have always paid our rent direct to the Landlord and never been one day late or even ask for things to be repaired.

We have three kids and find this really distressing

Any help appreciated

Stur

You'll find this is perfectly in order, and whether you read and understood the S21 is not relevant - it was still served. LL do this to protect themselves against tenants who turn out to be bad - they minimise their exposure.

They do NOT have to act on the S21, and then it becomes rolling.

What I cannot understand is that if you have paid, been no trouble, and had a good direct relationship with the LL, why they need to repossess. There would seem to be no logic UNLESS the landlord has plans to develop or use himself.

James_N

rpc wrote: »

So the S21 was neither issued after the tenancy agreement was signed (by at least one day) nor was it issued after you received the prescribed information about your protected deposit?

Not valid if either of the above are true. That doesn't mean they can't get you out, just that it will take longer and they will have to reissue notice.

Are you sure of your tenancy dates? The tenancy cannot be 11th August to 11th August - it would be 11th August to 10th August. Where does the 14th come into it?

It does depend on when it was actually served, etc.

princeofpounds

Are you sure that the LL actually wants you out? Or is the LA angling for a new tenant find fee? Might be worth contacting the landlord direct to be sure.

As pointed out above, the S21 stands a good chance of being invalid.

As for court costs, it is unlikely you will have to pay them. Even if the S21 is valid, or they re-issue a new S21 and we get back to this situation in a few months, it will still be some time before they get a court date. You could either leave on the day of expiry of your tenancy as agreed, or you could probably get an extra month by handing in your notice on a statutory periodic basis just before the fixed term expiry for the following month. Unlikely it would come to court before then.

Even if you do have to pay court costs by fighting to the wire, it wouldn't be anything more than the court fee and some related small costs. They can't charge lawyers to you or anything like that

G_M

As others have said, the dates are critical. A S21 is INVALID if a deposit has been taken, but that deposit has not been registered when the S21 is served. AND the prescribed deposit information provided to you by the LL.

So:
1) did you pay a deposit?
2) on what date?
3) was the deposit registered?
4) on what date?
5) were you given the prescribed information?
6) on what date?
7) what date was the S21 served?
8) what date was the tenancy signed?

If the fixed term ends on 11/8 I don't understand why the agent is saying you must leave on 14/8...

Are you sure the landlord wants you to leave? Have you discussed?

More here.

sturman

Hi many thanks to all.
Prince of pounds is dead right.The LL is a novice.LL is scared that if i'm out of contract that he'll be unprotected and even though I pay him direct and he manges his property himself,he still wants it to go through the LA.LL only has one property.The LA only gets paid with a new contract.The LA is used to this and has covered themselves completly.They protected the deposit before giving me the Section 21 which was then posted to me two weeks after i moved in.They delibrately sent the Sec 21 with a whole load of irrelevat material. LL is niave whereas LA are devious[they have about 10 outlets]

Sorry about 14/11 mix up .they want me to leave on 10TH.

Prince of pounds has summed up for me what i'm worried about{my £3000 deposit]

If I give a months notice before my AST ends[ it ends 10/8/12] and months notice to say leaving on 10/9/12 and providing rent is paid up to 10/9/12 and there's no damage, can they take anything out of my deposit.

Regards

Stur

tbs624

James_N wrote: »

You'll find this is perfectly in order, and whether you read and understood the S21 is not relevant - it was still served. LL do this to protect themselves against tenants who turn out to be bad - they minimise their exposure.

They do NOT have to act on the S21, and then it becomes rolling.

What I cannot understand is that if you have paid, been no trouble, and had a good direct relationship with the LL, why they need to repossess. There would seem to be no logic UNLESS the landlord has plans to develop or use himself.

James - you *can* edit that first post of yours so that it isn't giving potentially incorrect information. Even had the s21 been served on a date separate to the signing of the tenancy agreement, you cannot definitively state that it is "perfectly in order" when you know so little about the OP's tenancy and the relevant dates

Experienced LLs don't serve s21s on the same day as the tenancy agreement being signed, and that was so prior to the tenancy deposit regs.

The LL has to be able to show that the T was served after the tenancy was signed up for and after the deposit has been dealt with properly or it will be deemed invalid.

As for your last para, the s21 notice of intent to repossess (not notice to quit OP) is of course a "no fault" notice - T does not have to have [edit:done] anything wrong for the LL to serve one and then act upon it. On your "no logic" comment - well , many LAs and LLs do seem to operate enitrely without logic....

sturman

princeofpounds is dead right.The LL is told by the letting agent that i'm out of contract.Even though the LL manages the property himself and i'm always on time with payment he's worried that there'll be a problem.I told him that he still has the right to evict me. but he only wants to go through the LA.The LA take a big whack off him to renew the contract,If i stay with out a contract they get nothing.They have done everything by the book ie registering the deposit then 10 days later sending me the AST, Deposit protection info and snuck in there was a section 21.Done so we will go through them again.

Apolgies on the dates They are correct from the 11/08/11 to 10/0812

What i want to do now is give a notice to vacate on the 10 Sept 2012 and my question is ..If they instigate court proceedings to remove me on the 10/08/12 the date the sec 21 states and AST, can they take money from my deposit for any money they spend on legal fees..That is providing there's no damage and my rent is paid up.

Thanks everyone

Stur

tbs624

sturman wrote: »

The LL is told by the letting agent that i'm out of contract.

LA is a muppet. When your Fixed Term ends if you remain in occupation and no further Fixed term has been signed up for then the Housing Act 1988 allows for a Statutory Periodic Agreement to arise. All the FT's terms still apply , except for those on determination, ie how and when the tenancy may be ended ( 1 month from you and 2 months from the LL) You are not therefore "out of contract" as the LA puts it.

Even though the LL manages the property himself and i'm always on time with payment he's worried that there'll be a problem.I told him that he still has the right to evict me. but he only wants to go through the LA.The LA take a big whack off him to renew the contract,If i stay with out a contract they get nothing.

Again, you would *not* be "without a contract"

The LA's worries will be twofold: one they won't get to charge you and the LL for "creating" a new tenancy agreement and getting you both to sign it and two , they have no idea how long you might stay and therefore no idea how long they might continue to get their monthly commission

Some LAs don't understand SPAs and how they arise, some do know and prefer to push LLs and Ts onto new FTs instead.

Bottom line is though that you can set up in business as an LA with the specific knowledge, expertise, training, qualifications or formal regulation so never be surprised if the one you get to deal with is indeed a muppet.