First Direct Contactless Card

baby_frogmella

simax wrote: »

Not the point.

Then what is the point? You want to have ZERO risk? Then don't have any credit/debit cards. Don't have any bank accounts. Don't cross the the road. Don't drive. The fact is that IF you did suffer from fraud on your FD debit card, then i know from experience FD will reimburse you there and then...unlike other banks who often take weeks to look into such matters.

baby_frogmella

jackyann wrote: »

Feeling rather stupid here, but maybe some nice MSE person will point out to me what the problems are with contactless cards.

The problem is that some people want to whinge just for the sake of it. Yes, if someone steals your debit card they can use it for transactions (up to £20 via contactless) until you report the card missing but i like to think that losing a debit card is not an everyday occurence for the vast majority. Nevertheless ANYONE can lose a debit card and become a victim of theft and in that case FD are brilliant when it comes to reimbursing you.

housesitter

Before you start saying that people compalin for the sake of it, I suggest that you read into the lack of security with near field communications and some of the potential issues with cloning of data, never mind stealing cards.

http://goo.gl/JJJsX

^^^ Link to a PDF presentation from a hacker conference on lack of security on French NFC cards.
As one of many examples.
As the technology becomes more invasive, there will be more problems.

Why would I want to carry something which is by design insecure on the pretext that IF something happens I have the hassle of talking to the bank to get them to do an internal investigation and I have to try and prove that it wasn't me that made the purchase?

I believe in the elimination of doubt.

pacontracting

A bit of psychology here:

Think of it as a bunch of £20 notes, but with the added benefit that if you do lose the 'money' - the bank will give it back to you.

Also - for smaller amounts, you don't want to be entering your PIN all the time. Someone could be sitting over your shoulder watching you type it in. With contactless - no PIN so no-one can steal the PIN, then steal your handbag and use it to get cash out of the ATM. All they can do now is buy £20 worth of stuff at most and they would have to steal / find the card to do so! So you see - it's actually safer to have contactless cards.

Gromitt

housesitter wrote: »

Before you start saying that people compalin for the sake of it, I suggest that you read into the lack of security with near field communications and some of the potential issues with cloning of data, never mind stealing cards.

Maybe you should read some of the reports which state how insure chip and pin is, and the cloning of debit and credit cards using such technology.

There are several methods of protecting your contactless card from being cloned whilst its in your wallet. These include tin foil, lead, special compartments in newer wallets and the even simpler method of just carrying two of them.

Considering banks will refund contactless transactions, it could be considered that its more secure than carrying cash.

Buzby

I don't believe the arrival of Contactless cards brings any less security than Chip & PIN, which provided banks with the opportunity to reject disputes 'because the correct PIN was used'.

Just as you cannot demand a chip-less card* I doubt a choice over Contactless cards will be realistic, as they have already become standard issue.

My first RF card was a PayPal Debit MasterCard, and I got an RF shield wallet for it (costing £1) which prevents any use of this technology. If it bothers you, is a much better option than trying to drill out the aerial!

Hooloovoo

Also please do remember that despite the name "RFID" this contactless tech is not "RF" in the same way as Bluetooth or WiFi networking.

The cards have no power source. They use "magnetic coupling" to induce a current inside the card and power the chip, in the same way an AC transformer uses magnetic coupling to convert voltages.

This only works over a very tiny distance - a few cm at most. It's not just a case of building a device with a "big enough antenna" and then walking around a busy area "scanning" all the card details.

Even in the link posted by housesitter, they only managed to increase the distance up to 1.5m using 3000 euros worth of hardware. And that's in lab conditions, no doubt the actual increase in effective range would be less in real life.

And all this is not even considering the risk being lower than carrying cash since even if you wallet is stolen you eventually get the money back - unlike cash.

pacontracting

jackyann wrote: »

Feeling rather stupid here, but maybe some nice MSE person will point out to me what the problems are with contactless cards.

Some people think that because you don't need a PIN to use a contactless card for items up to £20, that these cards are less secure.

They worry that if they lose their card, or it's stolen, someone will go on a coffee shop binge with their card and run up 10's of pounds worth of debt.

They worry that if they walk anywhere near a contactless payment pad, their card will go into mad mode and start racking up debt.

They also think that there are people walking around with big ariels looking to steal their contactless information, so they can create cards to give to people who need coffee (or newspapers or Primark tops).

It's called 'Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt'. :eek:

They forget that the limit of the cards is £20 per transaction, that banks monitor transactions, that every few transactions, the card will revert to PIN mode, that you have to actually touch the contactless payment pad (or at least be no further than a couple of cms - that's about an inch for the benefit of those who fear these cards) and the pad must be enabled by the till to request payment at that time (i.e. the person has rang up your bill and is waiting for payment; it's not live all the time).

They are also more secure as you don't have enter your PIN for small transactions so less of a risk of someone looking over your shoulder to see your PIN.

Sad really. I've been using these cards for a couple of years now and they are very convenient (mine is a combined VISA and Oyster touch card (for London public transport) all in one).

housesitter

Gromitt wrote: »

Maybe you should read some of the reports which state how insure chip and pin is, and the cloning of debit and credit cards using such technology.

Plenty of exploits on chip & PIN, right down to infecting the machines at point of manufacture. Didn't say I liked this either?

Some people are happy with contactless and call it all unfounded FUD making sweeping statements about technology paranoia from others.
Bit narrow minded, but that's life.

Yes, you might get a refund by default. So I'm alright Jack is great.
But we are all still paying for it. The stolen money goes to the criminals, the bank refunds and we pick up the bill.
Rather than fix the security it's easier for the banks to give refunds and pass the cost of this onto the consumer.

Hooloovoo

pacontracting wrote: »

(mine is a combined VISA and Oyster touch card (for London public transport) all in one).

Interesting. Got a link for this? I don't live in London so it's no use to me, but I'd like to read about it anyway.