PCN leased car

ranger28_2

Hi,

Need advise with this. I have a leased car that received a PCN. I've ignored the notice based on the advise here and the lease company has now forwarded a debt collectors letter from Roxburghe. The lease company is deducting administration charges to forward such letters.

What should I do? I feel its wrong to pay on principle grounds but if I keep getting charged for such letters than I may have paid up in the first place.

Advise anyone?

R

Stephen_Leak

Firstly, the legal stuff.

Only councils, the police, train operators and Transport for London can impose legally enforceable fines or penalties. A private parking company (PPC) or an individual can't. Even PPCs call their tickets “Parking Charge Notices”, not “Penalty Charge Notices”. In law, they’re called “speculative invoices”.

Any warning signs are usually so badly positioned and worded, that they won’t have created a fair and legally binding deemed contract between the car park owner and a driver entering the car park in the first place. See The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997 and Excel Parking Services vs. Cutts, Stockport, 2011, 1SE02759, the Peel Centre case.

All the car park owner (CPO) can claim from a driver in damages for any breach of contract is what they’ve lost as a result. If this is a free car park or they paid, this is £0.00. Demanding more has been judged to be unreasonable and therefore an unfair contract penalty under the terms of The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997, which is not legally enforceable. See Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd. vs. New Garage & Motor Co. Ltd., House of Lords, 1914 and countless cases since.

What should I do now?

We don’t condone not paying or overstaying in a pay car park. If you do owe the CPO anything, then you should write to them, offering this in “full and final settlement”. Also advise them that they are "jointly and severally liable" for the actions of their agents, the PPC, and that any further actions have been judged to constitute harassment under the terms of The Protection from Harassment Act 1997. That ought to make the CPO call off the PPC and, hopefully, realise the potential cost of doing business with them.

Don’t appeal to the PPC. They always reject them. What’s in it for them to let anyone off? Actually, there is something in it for them: information. They need to know the identity of the driver of the vehicle involved at the time, because that’s who the alleged contract was with. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to make do with chasing the registered keeper.

With windscreen notices, an appeal letter will tell them your name and address, and maybe who was driving at the time. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to buy the details of registered keeper from the DVLA. With postal notices, they’ve done this already. But they still need to know the identity of the driver.

They sometimes say that they have the right to ask for this information. This doesn’t mean that you have to tell them.

However, even if you’ve written and told them who the driver was, it doesn’t make their actions any less unlawful. It just means that instead of harassing the registered keeper, they can now harass the driver.

What will they do to me?

The PPC, then a debt collector and then a solicitor will send you a series of letters. The debt collector and solicitor are usually also the PPC, but using different headed paper. These letters will threaten you with every kind of financial and legal unpleasantness imaginable, to intimidate you into paying.

But, they can't actually do anything, for the same reason that a Nigerian e-mail scammer couldn't sue anyone who didn’t pay them.

What should I do then?

Continue to ignore everything you get from the PPC and their aliases. It does seem counter-intuitive to deal with something by ignoring it. Eventually, they will run out of empty threats, and stop throwing good money after bad.

Now, the hire company ...

There are days, when I wonder who are the bigger crooks. These "administration charges" are a nice little earner for them.

Their T&Cs probably have a clause about the driver being responsible for penalties or fines" Now, that's fair enough, for legally enforceable fines as above.

But this is a "speculative invoice". If they choose to act upon it, that's up to them.

Ask for your money back. Then tell them that, as they've breached their own contract, you'll take them to court.

While they're on the ropes, hit them with ...

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2009...s-urged/30698/

... and the guidelines from the British Vehicle Rental & Leasing Association (BVRLA) ...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bvrla+private+parking .

vax2002

Deducting ? from where ?

The_Slithy_Tove

You should have read the advice a bit more closely (not blaming you, it's not necessarily easy to find). Whenever leased/company/hire cars are concerned, it is necessary to take the initiative and head off any potential issues at the pass, so to speak. Unfortunately you have not done so.

All it not lost. For a start, be thankful they haven't just paid up on your behalf. You need to be very robust with the lease company in explaining to them that you will not be paying such arbitrary charges (BTW, how much do they want?). Check the terms of the lease, and what is says about charges like this. If they talk about "fines and penalties" this is neither, so does not apply. In any case, why should you pay because someone sends some junk mail to them (which is what it is) which happened to have the registration number of the car you drive. You could tell them it's nothing to do with you, you know nothing about such speculative mail, and someone's trying it on with them.

In short, they are as bad as the PPCs, in that they tend to get in on the scam because they feel justified in making unreasonable charges.

Coupon-mad

We never tell people to ignore where it's a lease or company car - clearly the registered keeper (Lease Co) needs to be fully up to speed about the scam in order to ignore it. And if you didn't warn them up front, then that's a big leap of faith to assume they would know it's a con (almost no chance, IMHO).

You can't ignore letters when they are not sent direct to you! Assuming you knew you might have collected a scam fake PCN you should have written to TELL the lease co. about this scam and to stop them from taking it seriously. Now you will have to ask for the admin fee back and generally dig your heels in, after the event, which will be harder for you now.

If you'd searched for advice about lease cars you would have found lots of previous info. Read the MacBudman thread NOW and send a letter immediately to the lease company, pointing out that this is a scam fake PCN and asking for/demanding the refund of your money!

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3748269

There can be no admin fee for handling a scam letter which their own industry tells them to IGNORE. Look at the BVRLA links on the MacBudman thread, that's the lease industry trade body and they KNOW about this scam.

If your employer is deducting the admin fees from your salary you need to complain to HR and explain that this is not a fine and there is bound to be nothing in your contract (surely? check it and quote it) that allows deductions of admin fees over fake invoices like this. Fines and penalties from Police or Local Authorities, yes, quite possibly, but not fake PCNs!

:eek:

give_them_FA

So do you lease the car or is it leased by the company you work for? How are they collecting these "administration charges"? You do need to take firm action, bu what to do depends upon what is happening...

Buzby

It is self-defeating to have a point of principle when the leasing company has an agreement that it will pass on details of 'fines' or indeed pay them, complete with their own fees for doing so. This has formed the the basis of lease agreements for many years now.

Whilst the leasing firm has every right to mitigate its losses, it is not in any position to arbitrate, and it is this that leaves the lessee exposed. I would suggest ultimately that all you can do is roll over and pay, as this will be the least-cost option.

give_them_FA

No. The leasing company is as much of a bandit as the parking company. Sorry Buzby, but depending on the details which the OP has yet to provide us with, it may be the case that I would advise a county court claim for breach of contract.

Faced with the choice of a real and valid claim from the OP, or a fake imaginary one from Roxburghe, which do you think the lease company will be more concerned about?

Coupon-mad

Buzby wrote: »

It is self-defeating to have a point of principle when the leasing company has an agreement that it will pass on details of 'fines' or indeed pay them, complete with their own fees for doing so. This has formed the the basis of lease agreements for many years now.

Whilst the leasing firm has every right to mitigate its losses, it is not in any position to arbitrate, and it is this that leaves the lessee exposed. I would suggest ultimately that all you can do is roll over and pay, as this will be the least-cost option.

Nope, your advice is not correct.

The Lease Co. have got it wrong and there are no losses to mitigate.

The BVRLA (the UK Trade Organisation for lease companies) are clear that fake PCNs should be ignored and they tell their members that they have no liability for them at all. Links are on the MacBudman thread, that the OP can use to show the Lease Co that they are WRONG.

Even with the new Freedoms Act coming in, Lease Co's will not be responsible still. I recall during the reading of the Bill that we looked at here in recent months, that the Lease Co's requested an amendment which was agreed, clarifying that they are still not liable.

ranger28_2

vax2002 wrote: »

Deducting ? from where ?

Deducting £25 per letter from my salary

give_them_FA

You need to write your own letter claiming this back. What sort of firm do you work for? Also a personal approach to your line manager may work. I realise this is not an ideal situation to find yourself in.