BMA (British Medical Association) taking industrial action

Andy_L

horngkai wrote: »

With the new deal, there would not be a lump sum payout on retirement

There hasn't been for several years under the current scheme except by commuting pension for lump sum

kabayiri

CLAPTON wrote: »

given the high salaries that doctors earn and the claim that that pay both their 'own' contribution and the 'employers' contribution one would think it a no brainer for them to opt out and make their own pension provision

Truly self employed future doctors should have to go buy their pension product in the open market, like the rest of the self employed masses.

That is a sustainable solution.

Andy_L

vivatifosi wrote: »

Is there anyone on here who knows what the actual changes are and can list them all? I've been digging around looking but all I can find are references to retirement ages increasing, however there appears to be more to it than that.

Current scheme (page 3):
http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/Documents/Pensions/SD_Guide_%28BW%29_%28V8%29_04.2012.pdf

Proposed new scheme (page 23):
http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_133003.pdf

I haven't been able to find the tiered contribution rates but apart form that, except for the increase in retirement age, its much the same as Dr's existing CARE scheme: the accrual rate drops from 1.87% to 1.85% and the change from RPI to CPI that's already a done deal

Andy_L

kabayiri wrote: »

Truly self employed future doctors should have to go buy their pension product in the open market, like the rest of the self employed masses.

That is a sustainable solution.

and I suspect they'd be happy with that, unfortunatly its not an option that's on the table.

DaddyBear

kabayiri wrote: »

Truly self employed future doctors should have to go buy their pension product in the open market, like the rest of the self employed masses.

That is a sustainable solution.

I have no problem with getting a pension in the private sector as long as we get the other benefits that similarly ranking private sector professionals enjoy.
Free car parking, health insurance, performance-related bonuses, travel expenses, company cars, paid professional fees and exam fees....

The reason doctors are up in arms about pensions is that it's the straw that has broken the camel's back. There has been a sustained attack on doctors in recent years. Years of below inflation pay rises, loss of autonomy, loss of free accomodation for juniors, a disastrous and unwanted overhaul of the training system. Without pensions there are absolutely no incentives to being a doctor in this country. Just imagine the job advert.

Wanted, junior doctor
Requirements 3 A levels at A or better, 6-year medical degree.

Job description
You'll be part of an understaffed, highly stressed team and will have ultimate responsibility for patient care. You'll be expected to constantly work in unfamiliar surroundings with little support and perform any duties that allied health professional can't or won't do, even if you haven't done them before.
8 year rolling contract
At least 48 hours per week including nights, weekends and bank holidays (you'll be given about 1-week notice of your on-call shifts). Don't expect to finsh work on time.
You'll move hospitals every year and we'll give you no choice in the matter, you'll usually get 2-months notice when we move you.
Pay - we won't tell you until you start but we can guarantee that your basic salary will be less than a London tube driver for the duration of the contract.
Parking - £40 a month with no guarantee of a space.
Professional fees and exam fees - we will contribute nothing.
Other benefits - nil
Pension - sort your own out.

Anyone fancy it??

DaddyBear

Andy_L wrote: »

Current scheme (page 3):
http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/Documents/Pensions/SD_Guide_%28BW%29_%28V8%29_04.2012.pdf

Proposed new scheme (page 23):
http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_133003.pdf

I haven't been able to find the tiered contribution rates but apart form that, except for the increase in retirement age, its much the same as Dr's existing CARE scheme: the accrual rate drops from 1.87% to 1.85% and the change from RPI to CPI that's already a done deal

Contribution rates for most are rising from 11.5% to 14%.

CLAPTON

DaddyBear wrote: »

I have no problem with getting a pension in the private sector as long as we get the other benefits that similarly ranking private sector professionals enjoy.
Free car parking, health insurance, performance-related bonuses, travel expenses, company cars, paid professional fees and exam fees....

The reason doctors are up in arms about pensions is that it's the straw that has broken the camel's back. There has been a sustained attack on doctors in recent years. Years of below inflation pay rises, loss of autonomy, loss of free accomodation for juniors, a disastrous and unwanted overhaul of the training system. Without pensions there are absolutely no incentives to being a doctor in this country. Just imagine the job advert.

Wanted, junior doctor
Requirements 3 A levels at A or better, 6-year medical degree.

Job description
You'll be part of an understaffed, highly stressed team and will have ultimate responsibility for patient care. You'll be expected to constantly work in unfamiliar surroundings with little support and perform any duties that allied health professional can't or won't do, even if you haven't done them before.
8 year rolling contract
At least 48 hours per week including nights, weekends and bank holidays (you'll be given about 1-week notice of your on-call shifts). Don't expect to finsh work on time.
You'll move hospitals every year and we'll give you no choice in the matter, you'll usually get 2-months notice when we move you.
Pay - we won't tell you until you start but we can guarantee that your basic salary will be less than a London tube driver for the duration of the contract.
Parking - £40 a month with no guarantee of a space.
Professional fees and exam fees - we will contribute nothing.
Other benefits - nil
Pension - sort your own out.

Anyone fancy it??

virtually every science / engineering student at a decent uni has 4 A/Ls at grade A so nothing exceptional here

if they want to progress an acedemic career thay do 4 years + 3/4 PhD (earning peanuts) a few years at post doc and end up at 30 without an actual permanent job


there is a huge queue to get into medicine as it's a worthwhile career and EXTEMELY well paid for the AVERAGE entrant.

starting salary at 23years is over 30k
virually a job for life
and guaranteed to earn over 100,000
and that for every doctor not just the best

of course SOME graduates do very well and far exceed those figures but there is NO other comparable graduate employment (except maybe dentists ) where the AVERAGE can even hope to achieve those salaries


loads of graduates pay for their own parking and have no guarenteed parking place

loads of graduates have to make their own pension provision

loads of graduates don't have company cars
loads of graduate don't have any benefits in kind at all
loads of graduates do loads of unpaid overtime


you really have no idea what life is like outside a fantasy vision of your own making

do tell us what a new gradaute (23 year old ) Dr earns
then what a 26 year old would typically earn
then what a 30 old would
and so

way more than the AVERAGE accoutant or the AVERAGE solicitor but maybe less than the average dentist

Wookster

DaddyBear wrote: »

Anyone fancy it??

Now you're just being silly. You can always quit and take up a less stressful job.

So, things have changed since you signed up. Welcome to the world the rest of us live in.

The_J

Most civil servants are a total waste of space so if I was going to have sympathy it would be for the doctors who are actually useful.

smartn

As i have said before, this is all about affordability in the long term. Daddybear, don't you think you are being somewhat greedy when joe public is already going to be suffering on far less than you will be getting?

EVERYONE should have a reasonable standard of living in retirement and not have to worry about heating and food. Granted as a Doctor you may deserve a little more than the average, but as your pension is funded out of public money you shouldn't expect to be getting several times what other similar public servants are going to be getting (nurses, police, armed forces).

We need nurses, we need police, we need the military and we need Doctors. You already get paid a vey good salary so if you are worried about your pension use some of that to save for the future and retire early, don't expect people on 20% of your salary to pay for your retirement!