Custody advice

GeekyJoe

I'm new to these forums, have been very active here but never had the courage to post till now.

My wife and I are on the edge of separation. The main bone of contention is custody of the children (we have 3 girls, ages, 8, 5 and 3). She says I don't have a leg to stand on with the children and for some reason she is very confident. She doesn't work and I used to work extra hard to make a good living for my family. But it looks like this has come back to bite me. Basically, according to her since she was the primary carer she would have more rights with the children. If this is true this is extremely disappointing since I am almost being penalized for working hard for the family and not having much time to spend with the children She could be lying though, which I wouldn't put past her as I have learnt the hard way.

The last few times we've been close to separation, I've apologized purely so I can have the kids with me. After the last time, I've given up responsibility at my work so no longer eligible for promotions etc or turned down better job offers and she always taunts me about that i.e. not enough money. The main reason being I come home early and get a few good hours with the kids before they are off to bed. If anything this experience has taught me what is really important in life.

If I had money to spare I would definitely see a solicitor. I'm in a higher income bracket so can't get any support (i.e. free advice) and some of the solicitor costs are ridiculous close to £300 per hour The reason I don't have spare cash is because I'm currently paying 4 mortgages :eek: Granted 3 are rented out, but there is always some expense or the other along with the mortgage we currently have for the house we live in, bills etc.

Her parents are rich and give her loads of cash (as they are quite rich) which she stashes away in a secret account (she put the down payment for couple of the properties but has tied me into the mortgages). I really am not interested in the money she gets from her parents, but what gets me is that she spends like crazy on the credit card (bills sometimes close to £1800 a month) and when I tell her she transfers the money, but always makes it out like she is doing me a favour (damn it, 90% are her expenses)

The main issue really is the kids, I want to be fair and have a 50% split with regards to the the children i.e. 3.5 days each. But she laughs when I tell her that and says I'd be lucky if I get one day which would most probably be supervised. Her confidence gives me the impression that she has already contacted her solicitor (with the handy money she has). What worries me is that I can fully expect her to play dirty and lie through her teeth, she has done that on many a occasion.

Can someone please help, I'm desperate and need to know my rights. It looks like I'm being hung out to dry for being a simple hard working guy who is crazy about his daughters

I had gone for a few counselling sessions and the counsellor reckons her behaviour is classic bullying. I'm actually terrified of her (I know it doesn't sound too manly coming from a guy, but that's the truth). I find it very difficult to put my foot down.
I'd happily give her all the properties for full custody of my children

Apologies for the long post

amyloofoo

I'm sure others will be along to help, but didn't want to read and run :grouphug:

I appreciate this must be a very difficult time for you and really admire that you're doing your best to keep things civil and balanced for the children. It really worries me that you think she may lie in order to make access difficult for yourself. What makes you think this may be the case? Has she previously done this?

Caroline_a

Ok. Deep breath time. You need to see a solicitor, even if it's only for the half an hour free. Unless your wife can prove that you are going to 'damage' the children then you can apply for as much access as you feel is fair, and the courts will in all probability back you up. Make sure you are paying maintenance that is trackable (if it's a direct debit label it Child maintenance to Ex or something similar), and stay whiter than white.

Good luck, I'm sure lots will be along to offer advice.

DVardysShadow

I suggest you avoid separation with all your might for a little while and you think through the finances first. 4 mortgages and a credit card bill of £1800/month is not sustainable for an ordinary person. Separation is going to make it harder to get to grips with some of the issues.

I suggest you go to the DebtFreeWannabe forum http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=76 with your problem, mentioning the separation, but majoring on the financial aspects. Fill in a Statement of Affairs [SoA] at http://www.makesenseofcards.co.uk/soacalc.html and put that in your post too. When you have filled it in, click 'Calculate' on the Statement of Affairs form, click 'Format for MSE'. This gives you a popup window. Click 'highlight text', right click on the highlighted text and copy the highlighted text including all formatting codes. Paste the copied text into your post.

With your youngest only 3, your separation will be with you for 15 years in terms of parental responsibilities and from your description the finacial side will have a major impact on the rest of your life. So take the time to think through the financial side and do what you can before separation

balletshoes

OP you already know this is not going to be an amicable split, with regard to access to your children. So you need to see a solicitor.

GeekyJoe

Thanks everyone for the helpful and thoughtful advice.

amyloofoo, I know what she is capable of since she has called the cops on me for barely touching her (to stop her from leaving the house with the kids). She also influences the kids greatly, especially if we have an argument she will leave the house with the kids and when she comes back my eldest one will be quite cold towards me and only after a lot of coaxing she starts warming back to me. Things like these I have no way of proving. Also, she has great PR skills, is very charming and diplomatic. So obviously common friends wouldn't believe me for a second, especially she always makes it a point to make it clear that the kids can't live without her, how they rely on her for everything, how I don't do anything for the kids etc etc (most of it is clearly not true, but who is going to start arguing in front of friends, not only does it sound childish but would make it sound defensive). Everyone thinks she is a very positive and caring person (which I must admit if you hear her talking to people, she will fool you). The poor souls don't know how she makes fun of them behind their back or gossip peoples woes to others. It puts me in an awkward situation because I can't tell on her and I can't tell friends to stop trusting her. I hate gossip personally. In a nutshell she is very political and plays her cards very well, if you know what I mean.

DVardysShadow, to make it very clear separation is the last thing on my mind since from all I've read children benefit greatly having both parents. The main purpose of this thread is for me to be prepared if it comes to the worst. Clearly money isn't an issue for her, she wants to get me where she knows it hurts i.e the children. But thanks for the tip, I'll go to the DebtFreeWannabe forum and check it out. To make things a bit clearer, she does pay the credit card bill if I can't cover it. It is the manner in which she does it (as though she is doing me a favour since most of it is her spend). I like to be self sufficient relying only on money I've earned and hate having favours over my head But if it comes to the worst, I'll apologize again, I'm beyond having any self respect now, I'm in it purely for the kids

Caroline_a, since I'm on a higher income bracket I'm not entitled for any free support. I might just take a session with a solicitor. The only thing that scares me is that if they advice for more sessions (which I wouldn't be able to afford)

clearingout

essentially, neither of you have any rights. The rights all belong to the children. They have a right to a decent relationship with both their parents.

Unfortunately, exercising these rights can be difficult and if you have an ex who wants to be obstructive, you will have problems. The Law, however, is on the side of your children (and therefore yours by default) and it is usually possible to work things out one way or another.

If mum has been a stay at home mum or has worked part-time, you have a very small chance at shared residence unless mum is keen to share (which she clearly isn't). You can attempt to challenge this but the Law is on the side of 'status quo' and 'established ties', routine etc. so if mum is doing the caring, unless there is evidence to suggest the children are at harm in some way then you won't get this changed. A lot of fathers (my ex included) seem to believe that the fact they earn more somehow makes them a 'better' parent or the 'better' parent to be able to provide. It doesn't work like that.

If your relationship is breaking down, you do need to get some advice and be very clear about how you move forward. If she is of the ilk that she'll report you to the police for nothing at all, then you are going to have to watch yourself. Separation and divorce makes otherwise mild and good tempered people behave dreadfully so do not under-estimate the power of your emotions over the coming weeks/months. You need to get a hold of yourself now and keep a very tight grip. Police involvement will give her all she needs to drag you through court and have all sorts of Orders slapped on you - including supervised access to your children in at least the short term.

Have a good look at the forums on wikivorce.com as it will give you an idea of what you're looking at form a legal point of view and what might go wrong. You can then arm yourself with a list of questions to ask a solicitor. You will need legal advice - don't get it too soon as it'll cost and you'll realise in a few weeks that things aren't quite what you thought. Much information you can get over the Internet which will help keep your costs down. Be very wary of taking advice from family and friends - they're not divorce lawyers or judges and unfortunately, that which is moral and 'right' is rarely legal! It sounds like your wife has probably asked around a bit and is hedging her bets, trying to scare you. Your best form of defence is knowledge - so get reading!

floss2

OP, no matter how much you think you can't afford to see a solicitor, you can't afford NOT to. Make an appointment with a recommended family law solicitor who offers the free 30-minute session - there is no obligation to go back & use them for any divorce.

Gather as much together about your finances as possible - even down to bank details of where the deposits came from, pensions, ISA's ALL mortgages, all credit cards etc - and copy it all & keep it some where safe (work? in your car?) because it probably won't be there when you need it later down the line.

GeekyJoe

clearingout wrote: »

A lot of fathers (my ex included) seem to believe that the fact they earn more somehow makes them a 'better' parent or the 'better' parent to be able to provide. It doesn't work like that.

I never said or meant to imply I think I'm a better parent. I just meant that it needs to be fair for both parents. There is no reason she gets lesser time because she didn't work or I get lesser time because I had to (and inadvertently spend less time with the kids). It seems from what I gather the law favours the person who spends more time with the children which I feel is a bit unfair, given a choice I would have loved to give up work and spend time with the kids but it just doesn't work like that

floss2, I know I'll have to see a solicitor and I know I can't avoid it. There is another question I had though. Currently she takes the children on holiday whenever she wants and wherever she wants (she doesn't work so has no commitments). Generally, she makes sure the kids holiday is spent with her family (in the US). There are a couple of reasons, I choose not to go primarily because we don't get along too well (her family and I) and secondly they pay for her and t he children to come over (and I can't have them paying for me and I can't afford it). However, I can never have the opportunity to take them on holiday should I wish (even though the children are keen to). She just says I won't allow it. I basically don't have much say with the children, the children have also come to accept if mommy says its ok its ok (I think they realize now my opinion doesn't count really). Do I have any rights in this area? Can I for example say I want to spend Christmas with the kids and stop her from taking them (just as she stops me?)

MissMonkeyMoo

Hi, you have had some good advice here already and I really do think that you need to consuly with a solicitor to see where you stand. most do a free half an hour session regardless of your circumstances, so that would be a good place to start.

One thing I would recommend is that you start to keep a diary/log of events as they happen NOW. make sure you kep it somewhere safe that she can't access and I wouldn't tell anyone about it either as it doesn't sound like you have many people that you can trust. Log everything down, text messages, phone calls, verbal conversations where you discuss finances, credit card payments, the kids - it may seem really insignificant to you or not at all important but if you have several months worth of small incidents it is something that might come in useful (should you need it) later on down the line. Your wife sounds like she does have a bullying nature, and I am concerned that you seem to be stuck in a place which is a pretty much 'like it or lump it' scenario. Have you both been to marriage counselling at all? if you really want to make the relationship work you have to have an even footing and from what you have said your wife holds all the playing cards! This isn't good for your daughters either, as all they will learn - either consciously or subconsciously - is that they will find a man who will go out and earn the money and they can stay at home and spend whatever they want. Both you and your wife need to realise the effect that your relationship will have on them and the example that you are both setting. I'm not saying it is an easy fix, but I do worry that this pattern will repeat itself with your daughters when they grow up.

best of luck.

clearingout

GeekyJoe wrote: »

I never said or meant to imply I think I'm a better parent. I just meant that it needs to be fair for both parents. There is no reason she gets lesser time because she didn't work or I get lesser time because I had to (and inadvertently spend less time with the kids). It seems from what I gather the law favours the person who spends more time with the children which I feel is a bit unfair, given a choice I would have loved to give up work and spend time with the kids but it just doesn't work like that

sorry Joe, I didn't mean to imply that you had implied you were the 'better parent'. I just wanted to make the point that money isn't everything and a lot of fathers, from what I've read/seen/experienced myself seem to believe that by being the breadwinner, they are somehow better placed to care for the child on an on-going basis - the logical explanation to this is the financial side of it. Of course, financially supporting children is incredibly important (you can see my rants on my ex's lack of financial support in the child support forum!) but so too is their overall care. What the courts favour is 'status quo' - how's it's been up to the point of separating. So... children who are used to having mum around after school or a mum who does the school pick up a few times a week and fits that around part-time work or family-friend working, is deemed to be providing stability at a time when everything is about as unstable as it can be for children. Phew! Does that make sense?

Unfortunately, this inevitably means that fathers lose out in separation - because it is usually fathers who have continued to work full-time and as such, haven't made 'family-friendly' adjustments to their work patterns (or been allowed to by their employer). At the same time, there are a lot of women (myself included) who essentially give up careers or well paid jobs for less well paid/less satisfactory jobs, part-time jobs, party-planning, whatever it takes to bring in some money when they have children and then find themselves at a disadvantage when the relationship breaks down. Indeed, if you've had a few children, it can easily be 5 years or more since you last worked. They then find that they can't keep the roof over their heads and are labelled 'benefit scroungers' or 'lazy' or 'greedy' (or a combination of the three!) when their relationship breaks down. It's pretty rotten from where ever you stand.

Take some time to get the facts and understand them and what they mean for you and your children. I am sorry to say that you sound like you're in for a fight - in which case, understanding how the system works is vital in stopping you getting sucked into her nonsense (which is what she's trying at the moment), and getting yourself into trouble which you then struggle to overcome. I am sure there are plenty of men here who can tell you how they were goaded by their cheating wife into losing their temper and then having the wife phone the police who remove them from their home and their wife has a solicitor at the ready to get into court for an Occupation Order and a refusal to allow you to see the children until you drag it through court. Knowledge really, really, really is power in these situations.