Could this ever happen in England?

Person_one

poet123 wrote: »

I agree with this but, and it is a big but, removing fluids etc,in a bid to hasten the end is equally cruel and often the patient does have periods of lucidity when they know what is happening, and that is devastating to see as a loved one. Until you have felt that sheer helplessness in a personal capacity I don't think any medical professional can fully understand how it actually feels.

Why would you assume I've never watched a loved one die? In fact, didn't you thank a post just a few days ago in DT where I talked about the fact that I had?

Person_one

WolfSong2000 wrote: »

It's experiences like this that make me pro-euthanasia. If a patient is at the stage where doctors deem it necessary to withdraw all sustenance and slowly kill them, why not do the humane thing and end their suffering quickly and painlessly? I swear to God we treat dying animals with more dignity in this country than we do people.

There are lots of ways that legalised euthanasia could be abused though, that's the danger and why it isn't. Its not because anybody wants people to suffer.

If euthanasia was legalised I can see a lot of older people feeling like they had a duty to end their lives to avoid being a burden, or unscrupulous relatives (the type we see on these boards trying desperately to avoid losing a penny of their inheritance to care home fees) putting pressure on them. Society already places hardly any importance on good care of the elderly, do you think that would improve if euthanasia was legal?

poet123

Person_one wrote: »

Why would you assume I've never watched a loved one die? In fact, didn't you thank a post just a few days ago in DT where I talked about the fact that I had?

I wasn't referring specifically to you, (and I don't recall the thanks) but rather the medical profession in general.

This was brought home to me the other day by a friend who is a medic and whose brother died from a cancer which had only been diagnosed a month previously. He openly admitted that he had never understood the depth of grief until he had experienced it.

You may have watched a loved one die, but have you ever watched one starve to death? I have, and so have others here, it is not humane but dressed up as such.

Person_one

poet123 wrote: »

You may have watched a loved one die, but have you ever watched one starve to death? I have, and so have others here, it is not humane but dressed up as such.

No.

I watched one refuse all food and water for the last week or so of his life due to the cancer that was spread throughout his abdomen, and I watched another die quite slowly after IV nutrition and fluids were withdrawn as they were in a PVS. Is that good enough for you?

I'm afraid I just don't believe that people are being routinely starved to death when they are capable of drinking/eating and actually want to. That's not anywhere in the LCP and its not the standard of care, if it happens its an aberration and either a decision not taken lightly or cause for an investigation.

I think relatives are often kept slightly out of the loop and not enough effort is made to ensure they understand what's happening and that's something that health professionals need to improve, but the same story told from the points of view of a relative, a nurse/doctor and the patient themselves would often be three completely different accounts.

xxdeebeexx

poet123 wrote: »

I agree with this but, and it is a big but, removing fluids etc,in a bid to hasten the end is equally cruel and often the patient does have periods of lucidity when they know what is happening, and that is devastating to see as a loved one. Until you have felt that sheer helplessness in a personal capacity I don't think any medical professional can fully understand how it actually feels.

WolfSong2000 wrote: »

I remember this happening to my grandfather when I was a child...my mother was utterly distraught as they had decided to withdraw food/water from him whilst he was still conscious and aware of what was going on...apparently his tongue was swollen from dehydration and he was begging the medical staff for water, but they refused to give it to him and told my mother she was also not to give him any liquid.

It's experiences like this that make me pro-euthanasia. If a patient is at the stage where doctors deem it necessary to withdraw all sustenance and slowly kill them, why not do the humane thing and end their suffering quickly and painlessly? I swear to God we treat dying animals with more dignity in this country than we do people.

I am terrified that this will be given as an option next Tuesday when we have our meeting. Please, please can you tell me what you wish could have happened and what can happen so that we are as informed as we can be before the meeting.

thanks

dx

clearingout

my dad died in an NHS hospital 3 years ago - he was over 70, was terminally ill with lukemia (sp?) and was being treated as a last ditch attempt with some super-duper dose of chemo to try and put him into remission. He didn't fair well with the chemo and we were told, categorically, that should his heart fail (he had a history of heart problems), there would be no heroics (which I personally felt was fair enough).

A couple of weeks later, he managed to pull out his central line and severed an artery in the process (at least that's what I think happened - I have never really got my head round the medical speak) My mum had the misfortune to find him. He wasn't dead and I can assure you that despite being told 'no heroics', they fought for some time to save him.

It may well vary from hospital to hospital and personal attitude of staff but they went all out to save a very sick, old man on the day my dad died and I would have every confidence in sending anyone I know back to that hospital for treatment.

poet123

Person_one wrote: »

No.

I watched one refuse all food and water for the last week or so of his life due to the cancer that was spread throughout his abdomen, and I watched another die quite slowly after IV nutrition and fluids were withdrawn as they were in a PVS. Is that good enough for you?

I'm afraid I just don't believe that people are being routinely starved to death when they are capable of drinking/eating and actually want to. That's not anywhere in the LCP and its not the standard of care, if it happens its an aberration and either a decision not taken lightly or cause for an investigation.

I think relatives are often kept slightly out of the loop and not enough effort is made to ensure they understand what's happening and that's something that health professionals need to improve, but the same story told from the points of view of a relative, a nurse/doctor and the patient themselves would often be three completely different accounts.

Quite a few people have stated that this is their experience, and it was certainly mine. My father had no pain, he did not want morphine, he didn't need it, we stated that, they gave it to him anyway. We objected again, and they withdrew all fluids and IV nutrition, and he sank rapidly.

I don't doubt medics view things differently, that was my point.

Mojisola

I know it's some people's choice to go for the heroic intervention until the bitter end but I think we, as a society, need to reassess at what stage "quality of life" becomes more important than just being kept alive.

My relative had the option of an operation and chemo but the doctors said that, at best, he would be getting a few months more life but would have to cope with the after-effects of the surgery and chemo. He decided it wasn't worth it and let things happen naturally.

If he had gone for the operation, we would have supported him through it but I think he made a wise choice.

lolly_896

Person_one wrote: »

I'm sorry, but it can be cruel to put people through major surgery they have very little chance of surviving, let alone making a full recovery from.

Maybe it is selfish of me but for me personally i would rather have a slim chance or survival than no chance. IMO it's cruel and inhumane to withdraw food and water and as a result i feel i have been robbed of both Nans because neither were given a chance!

Person_one

lolly_896 wrote: »

Maybe it is selfish of me but for me personally i would rather have a slim chance or survival than no chance.

Not everybody feels that way, especially when they're actually in the situation rather than hypothetically, and sometimes its no chance with major surgery or no chance without major surgery.