Don't cut up your chip n pin card

System

Of course banks will say a chip can't be cloned as by saying that you don't have to refund the money! Let's be honest here banks aren't generous if they can find an excuse not to pay out they will do.

Nothing is 100% secure, if people can hack into the computers at the pentagon they can clone the chip on a credit card.

If anything you've reinforced my views as obviously if my card was cloned the bank would tell me to destroy my chip and then claim their logs said it had to be me and not give me my cash back!

I suggest all worried people follow the advice in the program and keep hold of their cards do they have evidence that they've been defrauded.

They can either take the advice of the neutral program or a person representing the banks........

System

blondie7 wrote: »

Im surprised they can walk into a bank and withdraw that amount, if I wanted that amount from my bank I would have to order it.

I think it was 9k in the bank and 8k in a shop. I've never withdrawn large sums of money like that but I remember during the northern rock crisis customers were queuing up to withdraw thousands so it must be possible!

Lifeforms

Chipped cards can be cloned, including the chips itself. it's been proven several times, by different agencies on different programs now. It's also been said how easy it is to do...

*NB When cloned card is used below I specifically refer to cloned Chip with card. (not just a card copy with out a chip)


Banks (and that includes all personal associated with them) from even before Chip/Pin cards came out were absolutely adamant that this was the bees knees, an unclonable method of absolute protection. They still take that stance because if people knew how easy they can be cloned, chip and all, then people wouldn't have wanted them in, and accepted them so readily.

Banks love it when people get defrauded this way, because they have this get out clause that essentially say Oh cards are unclonable, so you did it yourself. Person loses out, and has no recourse if the banks refuse to move, and they won't refund because then they're out of pocket.

So keeping a card if you believe has been fraudulently cloned, whether the bank tells you to destroy it is a must. As is trying to get the data accessed off your card by a reputable company. The bank will only see your "chip" having been used, but your card will show just what it has done/been upto (and thus showing what it hasn't)
I would also not trust a bank to request the card back to read the data off it either. Independent is independent for a reason. You do it, you want it in your favour, they do it, they wanna win. Independent doesn't really care either way so long as they get paid.

If you are getting a new card for any other reason, you should cut through the ol card/chip, a few times (and not just the metal covering, the actual real chip inside the metal covering.)

meer53

Lifeforms wrote: »

Chipped cards can be cloned, including the chips itself. it's been proven several times, by different agencies on different programs now. It's also been said how easy it is to do...

*NB When cloned card is used below I specifically refer to cloned Chip with card. (not just a card copy with out a chip)


Banks (and that includes all personal associated with them) from even before Chip/Pin cards came out were absolutely adamant that this was the bees knees, an unclonable method of absolute protection. They still take that stance because if people knew how easy they can be cloned, chip and all, then people wouldn't have wanted them in, and accepted them so readily.

Banks love it when people get defrauded this way, because they have this get out clause that essentially say Oh cards are unclonable, so you did it yourself. Person loses out, and has no recourse if the banks refuse to move, and they won't refund because then they're out of pocket.

So keeping a card if you believe has been fraudulently cloned, whether the bank tells you to destroy it is a must. As is trying to get the data accessed off your card by a reputable company. The bank will only see your "chip" having been used, but your card will show just what it has done/been upto (and thus showing what it hasn't)
I would also not trust a bank to request the card back to read the data off it either. Independent is independent for a reason. You do it, you want it in your favour, they do it, they wanna win. Independent doesn't really care either way so long as they get paid.

If you are getting a new card for any other reason, you should cut through the ol card/chip, a few times (and not just the metal covering, the actual real chip inside the metal covering.)

When i see it, i'll believe it.

Handsome90

meer53 wrote: »

When i see it, i'll believe it.

I'm not an expert but these guys are. Please watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pMuV2o4Lrw

meer53

I've seen all the videos, but i've yet to see a counterfeit chip.

SnowTiger

meer53 wrote: »

If the transaction shows as chip read, then it's not a counterfeit card, the fraudsters havent got around to producing a counterfeit card with a working chip.

That's the theory, anyway. And I must admit I haven't heard of any proven cases of Chip and PIN fraud. Card fraud is usually card hold not present or involves use of the magnetic strip.

However, if details of use are stored on the card's chip it would make sense for the customer to retain it so that its contents can be checked later to help resolve a dispute.

Lifeforms

meer53 wrote: »

I've seen all the videos, but i've yet to see a counterfeit chip.

And you probably wont. After all it's in the hand of criminals, who aren't exactly going to hand the dodgy card in to anyone.
The bank requests the sufferer of fraud to cut up their card, thus getting rid of "evidence" in favour of the defrauded.

Nilrem

The thing that makes it quite unlikely that the chips have been cloned, is that there are a very finite number of facilities that can make them, and the companies that make them have a very good incentive to make sure they remain secure, and will not generally sell them to people they have not thoroughly checked out (as in, extremely).

I suspect the chip also has to be registered with the issuing bank, and will have a unique id given to it during manufacture.
IIRC also each bank uses their own algorithms for the codes the chip generates and specifies exactly how the card works (there is a common standard for the reader, but that is only the interface etc), so I suspect even if someone did get a supply of the chips, they would have to know the issuing bank, and revision of the chip on the card to even get close to having a match.

Compare this to the old swipe cards, where you could by the hardware to make them at almost any well stocked computer security store, and use a bit of vhs tape as the medium (the magswipe is exactly the same as used in hotel door cards, computer log in systems*).
IIRC in the late 90's when I was at computer fairs there was often a stall selling mag readers/writers (and I think Maplins sold them).

Given the problems associated with cloning a chip, I'm not going to place any bets on it being done by fraudsters at the moment (I've no doubt it could be done, with enough funding and access to a suitable facility - the government can almost certainly do it if needed, but they tend to have a little more in the way of resources than even large criminal groups).


Remember the chips in C&P cards are similar (but more closely protected), than the current generation of chips in things like Sky viewing cards, and AFAIK no one has come close to cracking those, despite the risks involved being much lower (you don't have to risk getting caught in a store, or a card company getting suspicious about the number of failed attempts to use a card).

*indeed the same keyboards with a built in magnetic swipe reader could be used in stores for cards, or in places like hospitals to log staff into the computer.

derrick

goater78 wrote: »

However she was adament that she had never lost her card or given it to anyone. She had evidence that she was in work when the transactions were being placed.

Didn't the bank say she admitted giving her PIN to someone,(her sister?), which she never denied or admitted.

Proof she was in work does not prove she had the card with her or where it actually was, therefore someone with the details could have used it.

.