Seller kept money. Lost £0000's. Nothing I can do?

MeanParent

soolin wrote: »

I can't explain this very well as my explanations ar enotoriously convoluted. However banks cannot release details of account holders as that breaches all sorts of rules.

Merely stating you have been defrauded is no help here, otherwsie anyone could get address details from anyone merely by paying into their account and then claiming fraud- the OP would need to go to court to get a ruling that the details can be released.

You could go to court and get a court order demanding the release but this would probably cost more than the loss.

paddyrg

Accounts used to receive stolen/fraudulent cash are inevitably bogus or belong to an innocent third party (ITP). The ITP could have had their internet banking password 'phished' (the criminal just enters the account for long enough to transfer the cash away untraceably), or even more likely they have fallen for a 'work from home' scam.

You know those spam/scam letters for fake jobs where some company 'needs help in your country', which involves either cashing cheques, or receiving payments which must be withdrawn immediately in cash and forwarded by untraceable wire transfer to West Africa (and alas, 85+% of the time it *is* West Africa). That ITP is an unwitting mule.

Another way to get an ITP to be a mule is for them to not be a stranger, but a lover. The internet is full of lonely, naive women smitten by (again typically West African, although posing as any nationality) a dating site lover who seems too good to be true. I am not making this up, by the way, this is happening right now - I am mentioning it here to raise awareness.

jc808

Laz123 wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand what the problem of locating this lowlife is. In order to open up a bank account you have to provide proof of address, a utility bill with your name and address plus other id.

And how are burglars able to operate? There are locks on windows and doors...

Jimit

Thank you very much for your input people. Really appreciate those in-depth explanations.

Totally gutted that the general opinion is that the money is irrecoverable.

I thought there may have been hope with the Ombudsman - when my car was stolen the insurance company came back with an offer of around 4 grand less than the cheapest used model I could find. I spent a long time being bounced around various people in their company complaining and supplying evidence, only to end up with an offer of 2 grand less than their first.

After complaining to the Ombudsman the insurance company raised their offer by 6 grand.

I know this is a very different situation. But what bugs me is the fact that when I spoke to the chap at the bank initially, he was leading me to beleive that the money would be recovered. He even said he had been ripped off through eBay himself recently and 'managed to get most of the money back'. I spent a while explaining to situation. He looked on my statement and found the transaction then said he would now phone his fraud team and get it looked into. The guy picks up the phone, dials, is on the phone for a laughably short period then basically kicks me out, saying 'sorry, can't help. Thank you, come again'

I cant beleive my house insurance will cover me for being pickpocket and not for online theft.

Oh well. I guess I'll write this one off as a 'learning experience'.

Have to congratulate this person for such a brazen scam that is so easy yet provides near immunity from being prosecuted. They are going to be one rich !!!!!! if they can get away with this over and over again.

One thing that does deserve a little further investigation is that apparently if a bank allows a person to open an account with false information, they will be prosecuted by the law. I wonder if I could assist in pushing that action through then piggybacking a claim through the court for a similar thing - suing them for monies lost due to their negligence in not taking appropriate security ID checks on a person who then opened a bank account with them and using it to steal money.

mildred1978

Jimit wrote: »

Wristwatch trading has now been a hobby of mine for over a year, I have aIways liked watches and a chance purchase via eBay around a year ago, which led to a thrifty profit upon sale, gave me the trading bug which I have spent many a night on.

I have been steadily making varying profits on sales throughout the past year and found myself in a position to obtain my dream watch - a Rolex Submariner. The idea was to keep it for a while then try and trade it on.

As you clearly aren't aware how banks operate, I hope you know how HMRC operate, and that you should have been registered as self employed and paying tax on those profits.................

Jimit

Thank you very much for your input people. Really appreciate those in-depth explanations.

Totally gutted that the general opinion is that the money is irrecoverable.

I thought there may have been hope with the Ombudsman - when my car was stolen the insurance company came back with an offer of around 4 grand less than the cheapest used model I could find. I spent a long time being bounced around various people in their company complaining and supplying evidence, only to end up with an offer of 2 grand less than their first.

After complaining to the Ombudsman the insurance company raised their offer by 6 grand.

I know this is a very different situation. But what bugs me is the fact that when I spoke to the chap at the bank initially, he was leading me to beleive that the money would be recovered. He even said he had been ripped off through eBay himself recently and 'managed to get most of the money back'. I spent a while explaining to situation. He looked on my statement and found the transaction then said he would now phone his fraud team and get it looked into. The guy picks up the phone, dials, is on the phone for a laughably short period then basically kicks me out, saying 'sorry, can't help. Thank you, come again'

I cant beleive my house insurance will cover me for being pickpocket and not for online theft.

Oh well. I guess I'll write this one off as a 'learning experience'.

Have to congratulate this person for such a brazen scam that is so easy yet provides near immunity from being prosecuted. They are going to be one rich !!!!!! if they can get away with this over and over again.

One thing that does deserve a little further investigation is that apparently if a bank allows a person to open an account with false information, they will be prosecuted by the law. I wonder if I could assist in pushing that action through then piggybacking a claim through the court for a similar thing - suing them for monies lost due to their negligence in not taking appropriate security ID checks on a person who then opened a bank account with them and using it to steal money.

Evilm

Jimit wrote: »

I know this is a very different situation. But what bugs me is the fact that when I spoke to the chap at the bank initially, he was leading me to beleive that the money would be recovered. He even said he had been ripped off through eBay himself recently and 'managed to get most of the money back'.

Ebay is different as the sellers agree to abide by certain rules. Also they say you should use paypal and never pay anyone outside of the Ebay auction system/paypal/creditcard.

If he stuck to those rules he would have been fine. Its the paying by bank transfer that has caused the problem for you.

EDITED to add: Its bad that he told you that though - he should be trained enough not to say things like that or to ask the correct questions first.

The likelihood is in this case that the bank have done due diligence and the account has either been taken over by scammers or the documents were believable but fake. Likelihood of proving otherwise is incredibly low.

toadyfrog

mildred1978 wrote: »

As you clearly aren't aware how banks operate, I hope you know how HMRC operate, and that you should have been registered as self employed and paying tax on those profits.................

There is always one............

paddyrg

I wouldn't roll over altogether, at least with BACS there is *some* kind of trail to somebody at the end, probably an idiot mule who thinks there really is such thing as a job cashing cheques, but then at least some of your cash may be recovered. Are the police showing no interest at all? Even if you give them the account number and sort code and phone number of the bank's fraud unit all together?

GraceCourt

Jimit wrote: »

And thought the bank would recover the funds easily, (much the same as Paypal would) if the deal went sour.

... so they should provide a similar level of security to Paypal who in such cases as this would raise a dispute and refund the money if it was confirmed as fraud.

I'm afraid you also have an unrealistic view of Paypal as well. Did you know that using Paypal in the UK actually reduces your statutory protections as a consumer? Paypal relocated in 2007 to Luxembourg so as to cease being regulated by the Financial Services Authority... they no longer have any corporate presence in the UK so although the "User Agreement" claims to be governed by English law, you can't actually enforce it in the usual way with Part 27 (small claims) proceedings in the County Court, because you can't serve a Notice of Claim on a company based in Luxembourg using this part of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998.

It gets worse. Making a credit card payment over £100 through Paypal? You lose all of your protection (entitlement to a refund from the credit card company if the goods aren't supplied or the seller goes bust) that you would have under Section 75 Consumer Credit Act 1974 because you pay Paypal to pass the money on - they are not a party to the sale contract!

And if that wasn't enough... look at the Direct Debit form you signed up to electronically when you opened the Paypal account... the entity that you authorised to take funds from your bank account ("JPMC Re PayPal Pte Ltd") doesn't exist! JPMC Limited is a Liverpool restaurant company. So maybe you should e-mail Paypal on the address given for Direct Debit queries, i.e. directdebit@paypal.com?

No... that e-mail address doesn't exist either!!! I've asked Trading Standards to look into both of these things, but I'm not holding my breath. And finally, the so-called "Paypal Buyer Protection"... as you will by now have worked out, it's not legally enforceable (because Paypal isn't incorporated in the UK) and you have no right of appeal whatsoever if they turn you down for any reason.

Frankly, I wouldn't touch a Paypal account with a bargepole... can you imagine any UK financial institution carrying on like this? Debiting bank accounts through a non-existent company, non-existent customer service e-mail address, operating from out of the UK to be unregulated and beyond the reach of the County Court, and stripping you of your s.75 CCA1974 legal protection?

You must be joking!