Budget live

FTBFun

stewil18 wrote: »

What would you like me to say about public spending? How much was it last year? Now if you could just find out for me how many people paid tax and what they earned, i guess i could do some sums and find out what the shortfall would be if we introduced a flat tax, if in fact there would be a shortfall - i don't know as i don't have all the figures.

A 15% flat tax wouldn't support our current levels of public spending.

And its fairly obvious mathematically that a rate of flat tax less than the basic rate of tax (which the vast majority of taxpayers in the UK pay) would lead to a reduced tax take - nevermind the chunk of 40% payers who now have a whole 25% extra of their income >40k-ish

stewil18

FTBFun wrote: »

A 15% flat tax wouldn't support our current levels of public spending.

And its fairly obvious mathematically that a rate of flat tax less than the basic rate of tax (which the vast majority of taxpayers in the UK pay) would lead to a reduced tax take - nevermind the chunk of 40% payers who now have a whole 25% extra of their income >40k-ish

without all the figures, you can't say it fairly obvious mathematically

sunshinetours

stewil18 wrote: »

without all the figures, you can't say it fairly obvious mathematically

Yes we can. You have completely missed the points on many occassions above including my priginal post on this.

Everyone earning up to around £30k would end up paying more tax and everyone earning over that would start to pay less tax on a large sliding scale when you get to incomes of £60k +

So basically you are suggesting that low earners pay far more tax

As I said even the bluest Tory would struggle to get their head around that as a fair tax system

You would end up with millions more choosing not to work and get benefits for one thing

stewil18

sunshinetours wrote: »

Yes we can. You have completely missed the points on many occassions above including my priginal post on this.

Everyone earning up to around £30k would end up paying more tax and everyone earning over that would start to pay less tax on a large sliding scale when you get to incomes of £60k +

So basically you are suggesting that low earners pay far more tax

As I said even the bluest Tory would struggle to get their head around that as a fair tax system

You would end up with millions more choosing not to work and get benefits for one thing

jaysus, i was never saying it was the answer, and i said there are no wrong ways and right ways of taxing people, there are just, ways.

Lower earners wouldn't pay more tax, just proportionally more, but i guess thats what you meant.

Tackling the tax system is one thing, dealing with a benefit system that pays you more than minimum wage not to work is another.

StevieJ

I had to smile at this one

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118476/BUDGET-2012-Osborne-picks-pockets-pensioners-Four-million-elderly-pay-Chancellors-tax-giveaway.html

Mac on the budget: 'Terrible news, darling. I've been given a pay rise'

sunshinetours

stewil18 wrote: »

jaysus, i was never saying it was the answer, and i said there are no wrong ways and right ways of taxing people, there are just, ways.

Lower earners wouldn't pay more tax, just proportionally more, but i guess thats what you meant.

Tackling the tax system is one thing, dealing with a benefit system that pays you more than minimum wage not to work is another.

OK, wrong and right is maybe the wrong description. there are proven fair ways and proven un fair ways - is that better?

Yes, lower earners would pay more tax proportionally and in absolute terms, which is why a flat rate income tax for all earners is a "proven un-fair" way to tax a modern established economy - that seems to be the big point you are missing even now!

I do however agree with your final paragraph

stewil18

sunshinetours wrote: »

OK, wrong and right is maybe the wrong description. there are proven fair ways and proven un fair ways - is that better?

Yes, lower earners would pay more tax proportionally and in absolute terms, which is why a flat rate income tax for all earners is a "proven un-fair" way to tax a modern established economy - that seems to be the big point you are missing even now!

I do however agree with your final paragraph

I'm not missing any point, i know that 'technically' it would appear to be unfair, just the same as it is unfair that those can afford to have an accountants to help them avoid paying tax, yet take home £100,000's a year isn't fair.

I'm not an advocate for the rich, but i do believe that even those on low incomes should do their bit.....we are all in this together, except for those who aren't.

Sadly we are so entrenched in the system we use, that all we do it slice a bit here, add a bit there and make no real difference. Just because we have an established economy doesn't mean there shouldn't be another way of looking at things.

Sorry, missed your first question, in short no. No matter which system you use, some lose, some gain and some sit in the middle. Like i say no right or wrong, fair or unfair, it is what it is. The only fair system would be a utopian one with no requirement for a monetary system.....something i don't think we are ready for yet and probably only available in a star trek episode

sunshinetours

stewil18 wrote: »

I'm not missing any point, i know that 'technically' it would appear to be unfair, just the same as it is unfair that those can afford to have an accountants to help them avoid paying tax, yet take home £100,000's a year isn't fair.

I'm not an advocate for the rich, but i do believe that even those on low incomes should do their bit.....we are all in this together, except for those who aren't.

Sadly we are so entrenched in the system we use, that all we do it slice a bit here, add a bit there and make no real difference. Just because we have an established economy doesn't mean there shouldn't be another way of looking at things.

Sorry, missed your first question, in short no. No matter which system you use, some lose, some gain and some sit in the middle. Like i say no right or wrong, fair or unfair, it is what it is. The only fair system would be a utopian one with no requirement for a monetary system.....something i don't think we are ready for yet and probably only available in a star trek episode

Sorry but I don't know of any wealthy economy where the majority of people would deem it to be fair that a flat rate income tax applies. Its basic A level economics

If you believe that low earner for some reason would only pay proportinately more of their income rather than in absolute pound note terms, we are honestly struggling having a meaningful debate

I also have plenty of basic rate tax paying clients - so having an adviser is not the preserve of the rich in the real world!

stewil18

sunshinetours wrote: »

Sorry but I don't know of any wealthy economy where the majority of people would deem it to be fair that a flat rate income tax applies. Its basic A level economics

If you believe that low earner for some reason would only pay proportinately more of their income rather than in absolute pound note terms, we are honestly struggling having a meaningful debate

I also have plenty of basic rate tax paying clients - so having an adviser is not the preserve of the rich in the real world!

Be as condescending as you want, i really don't care. Tell me one thing - how are these wealthy economies currently doing, i assuming there's no debt and and the tax systems are fair to all and everybody is happy - i guess then these economies are working a treat

Just because for some reason we are deemed to be a wealthy nation (sorry how much debt do we have?) doesn't mean the systems we use are optimal.

sunshinetours

No insult intended - but read back and your points just make no real sense in most of the case

I never have and never would say that we or any other large/wealthy economies have an optimal system in place, nor would i be so blinkered to suggest that there is not other ways of doing things. The one thing i would say , and you brought this up not me, is that a flat rate income tax based taxation system simply is so flawed in so many ways, that its wrong on all levels

Debt is not bad per se - too much debt or too much bad debt can be/is bad however. Poor fiscal planning on behalf of governments and poor worldwide economic conditions can and do combine to affect all and sundry

I'll leave this one now I think