Nursing home dilemma - when Mum moves is my brother homeless?

mad990diver

Need some advice from the experts please.

Shortly after my father passed (October 2003) my Mum found she couldn't manage at home alone due to her poor health (severe arthritis and mobility problems).

As she lives in a large house we decided my brother and his family (wife + 2 kids) would move in with her. He rented his own home out and relocated 450 miles from Scotland to the South.

This arrangement has been working well for the last 8 years and whilst Mum has been paying most of the bills my brother and his family have been looking after her (cooking, cleaning etc) and keeping her safe.

Mum's now aged 77 and a few weeks ago suffered a fairly severe stroke. She's been in hospital and made some recovery, mentally she's bright as a button but physically she's in a poor way with severe motor loss left side. She will unlikely ever walk again and is going to need a high level of continuous nursing care for washing, toilet etc. She can feed herself but can't get out of bed, let alone climb stairs.

The hospital are suggesting she should go into a nursing home. The NHS will pick up the costs for about 6 weeks and then????

Mum has a moderate pension from my father's work and income from various investments. But this regular income barely covers the costs of running her home and is unlikely to cover the weekly cost of a nursing home.

She has around £250,000 of investments in a diverse range of products from ISA, OEIC, Bonds, Shares, Savings accounts etc.

Her house is worth around £500,000

She owes £240,000 to a trust arranged on my father's death.

So, short term she could fund her nursing care by selling off her investments but this and keeping her house will fairly quickly deplete these funds. Then the only way to fund her care over the longer term would be to sell her home. But this would make my brother and his family homeless (at least until he can terminate the rental of his own home and move back to Scotland).

What are his rights? Are there other ways we should be looking to fund her care? Anyone any expert advice or past experience for this type of situation?

[One final note, my brother works really hard at unsocial hours helping others gain employment skills. He earns only £11,000 per year plus a small rent he makes from his Scottish home so whilst I appreciate there are some big numbers in this post please don't flame our family for wanting to know our options. Our priority is Mum's care, her priority is passing on a good legacy - I doubt if the current younger generation will be so munificent.]

alanq

Not expert advice but something I have found - the accuracy of which I cannot judge.

"• Property: The value of property may be included in the assessment, but it may not. If, for example, one of your parents needed to go into care, the value of the home wouldn’t be taken into account if the husband, wife, civil partner or partner lived with them or if they shared the property with a close relative aged below 16 or above 60, or under the age of 60 if they were disabled."
http://www.savvywoman.co.uk/c8-pages/c8s3.php?art_id=104

So perhaps brother's two kids would count.

sleepless_saver

As she has a lot of money not tied up in the house, one option worth looking at an immediate care needs annuity. These can be used to provide a guaranteed income while safeguarding some capital - in this case the house. Also they can be paid tax free direct to the care home. You would need a specialist IFA to deal with this.

House could be let out once your brother goes. This will provide income without reducing capital. Presumably he is paying rent for living there at the moment.

ETA She should claim attendance allowance. I don't see why she should be expected to meet the running costs of the house if she's not living there and your brother is. If his household earnings are only £11000 then he should be claiming tax credits.

xylophone

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1601647/Long-term-care-fees-explained.html
"4: I live with my parents and they have to go into care, can I still live here, or can they make me sell the house?
If the property belongs to your parents and takes them over the £21,500 self-funding limit, the council can either take a charge against the property to recover their costs when it is sold, or alternatively they can refuse to provide financial support on the basis that the resident has capital in excess of £21,500, unless the following provisions apply: A relative over 60 and is living there, one who is incapacitated or one who is aged under 16 and is a child whom the resident is liable to maintain. Also, a lone parent who is the resident's divorced or estranged partner.
There is discretion for the council to disregard the property if you gave up a previous home to be a carer."

However your brother still owns his own home?

Presumably the debt to the Trust will be called in if the house is sold?

Savvy_Sue

I hate to be brutal here, but has Mum made a will, and if so does it say what she wants it to say NOW rather than when she wrote it?

You say she's bright as a button mentally, so now is the time to review this.

Because there is a risk that your brother isn't made homeless now, but is left in a bad place when your Mum dies.

PasturesNew

You need to find out if she will need nursing care, or just care, after the 6 weeks. If all she needs is looking after, then that's care. Nursing care is something that only a qualified nurse can do. The bill, therefore, might not be as large as you anticipate.

With the level of investments she has, plus her pensions, she has enough to keep her going for some years. Your brother can then plan what he wants to do etc, with some spare time capacity.

He won't be homeless - he has a home elsewhere.

You do need to look at what her will etc says - and sort out a Power of Attorney for her affairs for when she's not able. When you get a Power of Attorney, run down to the banks and get it registered asap so it's ready to go if needed. If you wait until you need it then the banks can take 2-3 weeks to get themselves sorted out and accepting it. PoA can also take some months.

Biggles

sleepless_saver wrote: »

As she has a lot of money not tied up in the house, one option worth looking at an immediate care needs annuity. These can be used to provide a guaranteed income while safeguarding some capital - in this case the house. Also they can be paid tax free direct to the care home. You would need a specialist IFA to deal with this.

I would echo this suggestion. For the sort of money she has outside the house, she should be able to buy an annuity that will pay all her care needs for the future without touching the house. This will depend on the insurance company's view of her health.

But, if push came to shove, I assume your brother's house is let on the usual shorthold tenancy, so he can move back there with only six months notice.

Errata

The hospital are suggesting she should go into a nursing home

But what does mum want? Would she prefer to lie in her own home, being cared for by relatives with additional care provided by home carers? £250k will buy her a tremendous amount of home care for quite a number of years and also fund any changes that need to be made to her large house eg downstairs bedroom and bathroom.

margaretclare

Errata wrote: »

But what does mum want? Would she prefer to live in her own home, being cared for by relatives with additional care provided by home carers? £250k will buy her a tremendous amount of home care for quite a number of years and also fund any changes that need to be made to her large house eg downstairs bedroom and bathroom.

I agree with this. And also, I think - my God, this woman is only one year older than me. Would I like decisions being made for me if I suddenly became physically incapacitated although 'bright as a button mentally', would I like 'the hospital suggesting I should go into a nursing home' (has anyone on the hospital's staff discussed this with her?) and would I like my financial affairs discussed on a public forum without my say-so?

She has a quarter of a million pounds saved and/or invested, therefore in my book, she's a wealthy woman and can choose and pay for the kind of long-term care that will ensure her comfort for the time she has left to live. Money can't buy happiness, it can't buy health, but it can buy you choice.

Cranny44

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/EN-GB/Factsheets/FS38_Treatment_of_property_in_the_mean_test_for_permanent_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/EN-GB/Factsheets/FS10Paying_for_permanent_residential_care_fcs.pdf.pdf?dtrk=true


The above are leaflets provided by Age UK and may cover most of your queries.

I am not sure why you are getting the first 6 weeks free in a care home??? I am not aware of this happening in my area so is it a local thing to your PCT? The only 6 weeks we give here is for a client in their own home who has rehab potential - not provided for someone in a care home.

The problem is people use the same terminology but mean totally different things so you should check this out.
But before you even get to the problem of the property you would need to provide some evidence regarding her investments and why these belong to a trust and not her etc. as The first part of the financial assessment asks do you have over the capital limit £23,250 - if yes then full cost and the property is not in the equasion.

But if she has £250K and owes £240K does she only have £10K in assets, then the property would need to be considered but as your brother has been there caring for her for 8 years and moved etc your local authority have the power to give a discretionary disregard on the property.
Likewise if she only had £10K and they chose to include the property she wouldnt be forced to sell it, the accured debt would just be payable from her estate at the end, therefore your brother could continue to live there no problem.

Also depending on the investment some may be disregarded - ie Life Assured bonds.

Biggles

Cranny44 wrote: »

I am not sure why you are getting the first 6 weeks free in a care home?

I assumed it was a reference to the first 12 weeks, when the value of property is disregarded.

It wouldn't affect someone who had £250k in savings. But I'm not sure how the £240k 'owed' to a trust would affect this.