MSE News: 'I'm on benefits but I'm no scrounger'

dktreesea

qetu1357 wrote: »

What is interesting about a lot of the people criticising benefits is that for a sizeable chunk of them, they still get more benefits (such as free education for their children and free health care) from the government than they pay in taxes.

BTW I don’t think that someone who criticises the benefit system is any more a benefit basher than someone who criticises immigration policy is a racist. Some of course, are, but not all by a long chalk.
Anyway, this is frankly what needs to happen

1. Those who can work, work and work pays more than not working
2. Those who cannot work, get benefits
3. Those who can work but cannot get work, get benefits
4. Those who won’t work, get nothing
5. We also need to create a culture when skiving is not an option
6. and bashing benefit claimants is wrong too

So basically you need to move the money from group 4 to group 1, perhaps because if more people are working and less skiving there’s less tax to pay and also by maybe giving more money in tax credits to those who work and are on low pay.

And I believe the Government is on a journey to make this happen.

An interesting list, but you skip over the effect of time. Everyone who is able bodied and of sound mind can work, but after a while of being on benefits, you start to get used to the freedom. Yes, you have very little disposable income, some more than others, but over time you can start to enjoy getting up whenever you want, seeing friends during daylight hours when normally you would have been squirrelling away with people you don't particularly care about, and wouldn't have met in your out of work life. You get used to not having a boss. Okay, the lack of money is a pain, and in most countries this eventually runs out (the States) or you get put on programmes like intensive assistance, where you have to retrain in one of the areas the country needs poeple and if you don't agree to, you lose benefits (Australia). In the UK it seems to be a lifetime choice, and for most people stuck on it, the only choice.

It's not that the long term unemployed won't work. they are just no longer in a "working" space. Work has become irrelevant. They don't have it and have few, if any, means of obtaining it.

Skiving, in an era of increased outsourcing of jobs overseas, ever increasing automation, an expanding population with fewer and fewer real jobs - look how the government is downsizing, for example - will become an easier option even than it is now over time.

The worst thing about Britain is the way the government limits peoples access to a decent higher education. Not enough college places or university places, most people priced out of the market for a university degree, not because of the fees, (which are deferred and may never get paid back if the person never earns sufficiently to trigger a repayment) but because no one can afford to live on the miserly stipend students of limited means get these days. They freely acknowledge that having someone on the dole for a protracted length of time is quite an expensive exercise, yet they refuse to invest in that person for a limited period of time to enable them to get the skills they need to be a productive member of society.

And no, A4E and their useless, overpriced "training" isn't want people need. They need real skills - training (including on the job) to be a chef/mechanic/hairdresser/carpenter/brick layer/painter and decorator/electrician/plumber etc. but no, what does our stupid government do? They farm the unemployed out to greedy corporations as slave labour, unpaid for months at a time. Disgusting! No wonder Tesco's profits are down! We are all voting with our feet at the grotesque way they are behaving. More power Sainsburys for having more sense and refusing to join the scheme.

cit_k

dktreesea wrote: »

That in itself says something about our benefits system. For people who are ill, the preference seems to be to label them disabled and pay them, rather than fund the treatment for either curing or managing the disability. Take mental illness. If a doctor diagnoses you as mentally ill and unable to work, you can get a disability allowance.

Nope, getting a diagnosis of mental illness will not in itself get you a disability allowance.
It wont even get you incapacity benefit or ESA, you only get those, or DLA, if you meet the criteria, which is not based upon a diagnosis, but the effects of the condition.

dktreesea wrote: »

But it's really hard to get the treatment you need funded by the NHS. It's as if, once you are labelled you don't have to get better, and the state doesn't want to fund the cost of you getting better.

I noticed this when I was first diagnosed with osteoarthritis. One of the first things one of the physiotherapists at the hospital counselled me about was getting disability living allowance. She had the leaflet and documents all ready for me, including a contact to someone if I couldn't manage filling out the forms properly. She said it wasn't means tested, and that I would qualify so I "may as well claim it". When I pointed out I lived up 3 flights of stairs, she said that was okay - it was about entitlement, not individual circumstances. Being already able to support myself didn't come into it. The attitude was, it's like an accident compensation scheme. You're sick and it's not your fault. We don't want to fund the cost of treating this because it isn't curable. However, the S.t.a.t.e. (Signer of the Tab At the Taxpayers Expense) is prepared to compensate you for this unfortunate state of affairs to the tune of (at that time) £17.55 a week.

The guy downstairs has a bad back. Some kind of fall at work a few years back. So why, in all this time, haven't the NHS given that chap the help he needed to heal his back? He says it's a healable condition but he can't get access to the physio he needs and three months (the max he could get from the local NHS) isn't enough to heal the problem. What's the point of the NHS if it is unable to give people the care they need to heal and get back to work?

Maybe it's about time Britain stopped shoving money at people and concentrated on helping them fix their problems instead.

The NHS and the Welfare system are two completely seperate things.

cit_k

dktreesea wrote: »

But that's exactly what disability benefits and every other benefit that flows on from them are. You couldn't have put it more succinctly.

No they are not.

Many people are dealt a poor hand, and are not eligible.

They are simply to address the individual issue each benefit is designed for.

Have you ever thought of joining the tory party, your views would fit right in.

lanza

dktreesea wrote: »

An interesting list, but you skip over the effect of time. Everyone who is able bodied and of sound mind can work, but after a while of being on benefits, you start to get used to the freedom. Yes, you have very little disposable income, some more than others, but over time you can start to enjoy getting up whenever you want, seeing friends during daylight hours when normally you would have been squirrelling away with people you don't particularly care about, and wouldn't have met in your out of work life. You get used to not having a boss. Okay, the lack of money is a pain, and in most countries this eventually runs out

It's not that the long term unemployed won't work. they are just no longer in a "working" space. Work has become irrelevant. They don't have it and have few, if any, means of obtaining it.


Skiving, in an era of increased outsourcing of jobs overseas, ever increasing automation, an expanding population with fewer and fewer real jobs - look how the government is downsizing, for example - will become an easier option even than it is now over time.

You said it, especially about automation. The future of our world may be one where work is going to rapidly shift with increases in machine automation of even intellectual work. What are we determined to enslave each other, even when machines can do much of the labour, physical or mental ? It seems we are hardwired to utilize each other to some extent. Hence workfare will have you begging and groveling to do useless tasks just so one segment of society has a satisfaction of control.

Being unemployed was the best thing that ever happened to me and I am so glad to this country it gave me that space to re-discover myself after adversity. It took a while, but thanks to unemployment I eventually i transformed from a tory sycophant operating on a treadmill of fear where i felt I had some duty to start and grow businesses to understanding what a healthy pace of life and a healthy life really should be.

Yes i created a series of financial startups including at 21 years of age one that very soon had a range of national contracts, then after two years i woke up realizing not only were people around me changing to look at me as a cash producer, but i had become greedy and dissatisfied, always wanting more. One day i had it and handed my share of the business to my partner and let him have it for free. Yes it was making a healthy profit and no sign of stopping, and no i didnt come out with much more than i needed to survive for a few months.

We are only here for a short while and it should not be this miserable or greed enhancing. If it is then I recommend dropping out in some way till you can find a way to make it work whether in wealth or in poverty. That does not mean dropping out the system completely but dropping out in mind and not letting others project guilt or structure on to you. As soon as you start on that route its over. you have to want to contribute from your own vision of life and find something in life and a society you like, even if a certain segment are intent on being XXXXrds at all levels high and low.

if you cannot, then think of somewhere or some area of life or the world you do, if possible. Obviously not everybody can do that, and thats where we should have empathy. Of course there is a whole segment of the population just ready to feed off of those that are trapped again at both high and low levels. That is life it seems. However to some degree they want an easy target. let tories and their lackeys littering this forum lay these guilt trips on you and its over.

Stuff that nonsense. How long are we here then subtract how long are we here with some youth and vitality ? Life has to be re-appraised so that a person can both be happy and find someway to make themselves interact with life, hopefully in a productive manner. not an easy problem and it requires a lot of flexible thinking as having your eggs in one basket is a road to disaster. Again not everybody can do it. But there may be many ways to consider.

For me this meant finding the correct ratio of self employment/work to other life fulfilling activities and making the rest of life fit that. i.e.

The roof over your head problem. Some people use internet networking sites to swap living locations or come to flexible arrangements. Only by trying do they find these ways. I am more individual so bullt a campervan, then set about in that freedom from rent thinking of at least a dozen or more ways i could generate income that was practical and realistic and most of all i would like to get up everyday for the forseeable future and do. That required thinking of about 60 ideas at least to get down to 12. Perhaps not everybody is that creative, but how can you know unless you give yourself freedom ? If you are not accept you are not.

Would you believe it turned out like many ex businessmen. I actually enjoyed doing some very low status and menial dead end level work that is undesirable to many ? AND i have stuck at it for 5 years, and held onto a flat. What a surprise to me that has been. However that is just my strange tale. I sure aint some sycophant telling others they can find happiness in a boring dead end job and sure would not promote that for all. I plan on retaining this work as long as i can. when i landed a high status contract work i refused to give this up and kept my hand in one day per week as a fall back.

Glad i did because, I was right. That area of work is pure gold. All the best people are here. While the high status position that has all the trappings of what we think is prized was again a load of junk. just trouble and full of slimy, self serving BXXXrds, that even lie to themselves, which is part of the reason they suck people in. they dont even know how deluded they are in regards to how selifsh and dishonest they really are.

Dont believe a word any tory says, its an unconscious covenant of selfishness and dishonesty operating on pure instinct commonly known as brown-nosing. ITs so deeply engrained they dont even realise how rotten they are themselves. Perhaps the reason for that is that life is just as simple as haves and have nots and all the rest that says it is not is lies and where you are. Yes we do have altruism and tories have that too, but becoming a "have" does change the mindset of a lot of people (as i felt was happening to me) generally so that altruism alters to become a highly conditional part of their nature.

you can actually see this switch occur when many (not all) people come into a pot of money very suddenly, such as inheritance and they transform into another being. Now magnify that position of being a "have" over somebodies life and of course they are going to have no inkling of where they are mentally. just a load of lies told to each other. Hey its not their fault, its a human fact of how we operate. Tories really do honestly believe their own sincerity.

krisskross

dktreesea wrote: »

What's with the people who are being nippy about other people having a disabled badge? Is this something to aspire to? Hardly! I'm sure people who are disabled with, for instance, arthritis, would swap their disabled badge for straight fingers and a rest from pain any day of the week. And what about people who get a tightness in their chest and can't breathe properly? Have any of the people being nippy about people with disabled badges had that experience? it's definitely not pleasant. In fact it's quite scary expecially if it goes on for a while.

I don't think people are necessarily 'snippy' about people with BB badges. There is however undoubtedly a lot of abuse in the scheme.

What I dislike is posters insisting that they have to face a barrage of abuse everytime they use theirs. I simply do not believe it.

RoughRook

lanza wrote: »

You said it, especially about automation. The future of our world may be one where work is going to rapidly shift with increases in machine automation of even intellectual work. What are we determined to enslave each other, even when machines can do much of the labour, physical or mental ? It seems we are hardwired to utilize each other to some extent. Hence workfare will have you begging and groveling to do useless tasks just so one segment of society has a satisfaction of control.

etc......etc...........etc

What a refreshing and enlightened post! Thank you for taking the time to write. Although difficult due to social conditioning, I just wish many others could open their eyes and see as clearly. But as you said yourself, you once possessed (much like myself) a different mindset, so there is still some hope.

theshed

Not many people will have issues with a situation such as this.
There are many genuine and deserving claimants out there.
The problem is with the numerous claimants who can only be described as fraudulant.
People who feign illness, those who have been on benefits since almost leaving school and other non deserving cases.
These are the people who need to be investigated and the money spent where and on whom it is really needed.

dktreesea

theshed wrote: »

Not many people will have issues with a situation such as this.
There are many genuine and deserving claimants out there.
The problem is with the numerous claimants who can only be described as fraudulant.
People who feign illness, those who have been on benefits since almost leaving school and other non deserving cases.
These are the people who need to be investigated and the money spent where and on whom it is really needed.

But what exactly is fraudulent about the claims? Where do you draw the line? If someone leaves school and still hasn't found a job 4/20/40 years later, is that fraud to continue to claim the jobseekers allowance? There's insufficient higher education provided for those who need it.

If someone has a bad back and can't get the care they need, be it physiotherapy or some other ongoing therapy to fix the problem, - or maybe it's incurable and they will always have a bad back - is it fraud if they then don't get a job because they don't want to work through the pain? I would think that on any one day there are literally thousands of people who are employed and have aches and pains of various levels of severity but just choose to work through them rather than go on the sick benefit.

What about people who work part time - a definite trend in the UK - secure in the knowledge that other taxpayers will top up their income so that they get a better than average standard of living, despite only working two or three days a week?

Who is, to use your words, a "non deserving case?" People are claiming because the law says they are entitled to, i.e. they are deserving. On what basis would you brand any claimant as non deserving just because they understand the system and are prepared to work it, within the law, to their advantage? People, for example, who have more children than they could personally afford because the government has mandated that other taxpayers should fund their extra children. Or who work 16 hours then claim maximum benefit for things like housing allowance? To me, this wouldn't be fraudulent; it's just working the system. It may be immoral, and there may even be an argument that it's a kind of theft, but it isn't illegal.

What I object to is the level of support. The government owes a duty of care to all its citizens, not just the working (and non working!) poor. I know the Daily Mail can be a bit sensationalist but how about the article on large families today:

The 190 families with ten children who cost you more than £11million in benefits A YEAR

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083998/Benefit-cap-190-families-10-children-cost-taxpayers-11m-A-YEAR.html#ixzz1neBXcWjA

Provided either one of the parents is working 16 hours a week, - and if they can't get a job there is nothing stopping them going self employed and delivering leaflets/becoming a market trader/washing windows etc to make up those hours, - the £26k cap goes out the window.

We moan and whinge about sickness beneficiaries but don't fund the services they need to heal and/or get the support and counselling they need, much less any practical physical help with their home, e.g. putting in a ramp to the front door instead of.as well as stairs, putting a hand rail along the hallway, installing walk in showers and baths. Yet we have a benefits system that makes it financially rewarding, relative to the able bodied, to be disabled.

We complain about youths who "don't work, won't work" and about an education system deemed so expensive we have to fleece English students to the tune of £9k a year for an education everyone else in the EU, including students from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland studying in England, can get for free. Yet we have a benefits system designed to support intensive human breeding.

It's about time we changed the benefits law and restricted both the scope and the amount of benefits.

aimeeb30

goodcommonsense wrote: »

Just to clarify, in case it helps anyone else in the OPs position, a family with one disabled parent, a dependant partner and two school age children should receive the following:

IB
Age Addition
Dependant Addition
Maximum Child Tax Credit
Housing Benefit (small deduction as income greater than applicable amount)
Council Tax Benefit (small deduction)
DLA (rate varies according to care needs)

I won't post the amounts, but there is no doubt that it comes to more than £11,000 pa.

I have a disabled partner and we do not get any of that so maybe some peple are getting all that is entitled to them but i would hazard a guess that 85% are not i have never even heard of most of these benefits

Pobby

Interesting. I am 63 and have been on benefits since April last year. I had a massive breakdown and struggled to work through it. In the end I got the sack. By this time I was unable to leave the house on my own. Frequently in tears and was diagnosed with moderate to severe depression and anxiety along with other symptoms. So after 40 years of working hard I am now drawing from the state. The only reason I am still around is the love of my wife.

Do I feel guilty? No I don`t. It is a genuine illness and I have a full NI contribution and contributed a ton of tax. However I am very grateful to get help.

Now, being a hard worker, I never really looked at benefits. Always been a guy where that never figured. Now it becomes clear to me about some other claimants I have known. A guy that worked for me. His father had not worked since 25. Had a nice purchased home and car. Couldn`t work because of a bad back but when I needed building work he was the first to come to me. A guy who is a JW, knocking on peoples doors can`t work because of depression. Not worked that out. Has managed to do about 10 years on benefits.

A local guy who can`t work because of bad wrists, don`t get it as he is often seen in the pub with his building clothes on after a days work. Or the lass that came into £80k but hasn`t informed the benefits office.

Not proud to be drawing off the state but feel that I do qualify. There are plenty of genuine people about, sadly a few know how to work the system.