MSE News: 'I'm on benefits but I'm no scrounger'

Derivative

meher wrote: »

I absolutely agree that wealthy have to pay 60% tax (albeit they do pay stealhily thanks to clever Gordon Brown) and vat reduced to 12% like in the us. I'd also very dearly love to see the inheritance tax be 100% and any obscene levels of wealth hoarded and passed to be criminalised as unlawful gains. But being subject to prejudice bordering to bullying for wanting fairness for all is something that cannot be allowed to get past unaddressed and I suspect such victims of abuse and being labelled as bashers who want to see fairness belong to every category. It is important to remember many resourceful people among the disabled are working and tax payers as much as they claim disability allowances.

I wouldn't say I agree with IHT at 100% (I don't think we should have an inheritance tax - it's double taxation).

But the rest of your post looks good to me.

I think it's silly to call those who question the system 'bashers' or claim that somehow there is some underlying motive or hatred. As you've said - it is about fairness. Those who work should be rewarded for their labour. Those who can't should be allowed enough to live on. That's not really in question.

The only people name calling here are the ones who can't be bothered to discuss, and to be honest, let them get on with it.

cosmic-dust

Wingus wrote: »

Ask yourself why are people on benefits being so defensive, i'll tell you why, because we all stick together to help those that need help. You'll be suprised at the amount of people on benefits are very caring and understanding of other situations, and how they feel to a point. It's similar to the " working class", they all stick together, if all be it for the fact they could loose thier job tomorrow..lol

I have to disagree "we don't all stick together".

I never understand this need/urge for people on benefits to declare to the whole world I'm on benefits but I ain't a scrounger.

As a benefit claimaint myself I neither care what is said in the media nor an internet forum. I applied for benefits, the system has agreed that I am entitled to them. These are the only people who I have to justify myself to.

I don't have a big stamp on my forehead saying "benefit claimant". Nobody outside your four walls needs to know you receive benefits. These days all your benefit money is paid into your bank account, so gone are the days that you had to stand at the post ofice with your giro in your hands.

qetu1357

meher wrote: »

I absolutely agree that wealthy should be made to pay 60% tax (albeit they do pay stealhily thanks to clever Gordon Brown) and vat reduced to 12% like in the us. I'd also very dearly love to see the inheritance tax be 100% and any obscene levels of wealth hoarded and passed to be criminalised as unlawful gains. But being subject to prejudice bordering to bullying for wanting fairness for all is something that cannot be allowed to get past unaddressed and I suspect such victims of abuse and being labelled as bashers who want to see fairness, belong to every category. It is important to remember many resourceful people among the disabled are working and tax payers as much as they claim disability allowances.

60% tax? I suppose it all depends on what you mean by wealthy, do you mean £50k, £100k or £500k a year?

And honestly IHT at 100% - it will never happen. If a person accrues wealth why shouldn't they pass it to who they want?

The fact is if you are really wealthy you can avoid (evade?) tax so (because the cost to avoid is less than the tax you would save) there is no point in over taxing - you just get less.

Flyboy152

krisskross wrote: »

I can't imagine anyone getting JSA, housing benefit etc in any European country while they look for work. They would need a pre-arranged job and sufficient funds to live on.

We lived in Spain for a few years and very few English people had legal jobs. Most were trying to scrape a living ripping off other ex-pats in the black economy.

Every citizen within the EU has the right to employment in any other EU country. Whilst any UK citizen is seeking work in any EEA country, why shouldn't they get Job Seekers Allowance?

Wingus

I have to disagree "we don't all stick together".

I never understand this need/urge for people on benefits to declare to the whole world I'm on benefits but I ain't a scrounger.

As a benefit claimaint myself I neither care what is said in the media nor an internet forum. I applied for benefits, the system has agreed that I am entitled to them. These are the only people who I have to justify myself to.

I don't have a big stamp on my forehead saying "benefit claimant". Nobody outside your four walls needs to know you receive benefits. These days all your benefit money is paid into your bank account, so gone are the days that you had to stand at the post ofice with your giro in your hands.

Ok, i'll try and explain the best i can with what i think i know, it may njot be 100% accurate, but the general guidelines are correct.

OK, before and during the world wars, there was no " benefits" system, i am guessing the then back then days "rationing" was the closest to benefits system we got today. The benefits system was introduced after the wars, because many families were torn apart, the shock and awe of the destruction and so on, basically it was hell, for any society.

For those people that found it execptionally hard, and the war hero's came back, often with injuries that make us today seem normal, there was no real prospects of a job for them. Sure, there was plenty of labor jobs, but those that couldn't do that, needed some sort of income to help. Hence the benefits system was made.

Also back in those days, everyone stuck together, in thier own comunities, and rallied around to help the best they could, but it also saw the segregation of " those on benefits and those not" In the early days, there were no benefit cheats, or scroungers....(not that i know of, i wasn't there so dont quote that..lol).

From about the mid 70's till now, the media has grew and grew, questioning every aspect of life, and exposing some real truths, some of which are undescribable here. It's onlt recently, since the invention of the computer, that we are all able to get information...instantly, on demand. Now, ytou dont even have to leave your house, and can be in touch with the world.

That has inevitably led to a new way of thinking, that work is the only solution to all your problems, you must have a job...or else. The or else is..benefits, and if your on benefits, your a scrounger. That has been commonplace since the 70's, i know this because my parents were never on benefits, ever. That's probally why i got thrown out of the family home at 16, not sure, but that's not the point.

Ever since then, it's been a balance of...your either on benefits, or your not. that's also why over 30 million £ of benefits go unclaimed each year, not because they are entitled to it, because they are proud and dont want to be seen or known as a scrounger.

So when i say, we stick together, i'm not saying, we all have regular group hug sessions in the park, and sit round a fire singing kum-bay-ah all day. I mean it in a figuritvly sense, that societies will always stick together, even though there is greater preasure to be alone in this world.

seven-day-weekend

krisskross wrote: »

I can't imagine anyone getting JSA, housing benefit etc in any European country while they look for work. They would need a pre-arranged job and sufficient funds to live on.

We lived in Spain for a few years and very few English people had legal jobs. Most were trying to scrape a living ripping off other ex-pats in the black economy.

Same where we were in Spain - in that particular area at the moment unemployment is at 40% for native Spaniards, let alone for foreigners who don't speak the language.

krisskross

Wingus wrote: »

Ok, i'll try and explain the best i can with what i think i know, it may njot be 100% accurate, but the general guidelines are correct.

OK, before and during the world wars, there was no " benefits" system, i am guessing the then back then days "rationing" was the closest to benefits system we got today. The benefits system was introduced after the wars, because many families were torn apart, the shock and awe of the destruction and so on, basically it was hell, for any society.

For those people that found it execptionally hard, and the war hero's came back, often with injuries that make us today seem normal, there was no real prospects of a job for them. Sure, there was plenty of labor jobs, but those that couldn't do that, needed some sort of income to help. Hence the benefits system was made.

Also back in those days, everyone stuck together, in thier own comunities, and rallied around to help the best they could, but it also saw the segregation of " those on benefits and those not" In the early days, there were no benefit cheats, or scroungers....(not that i know of, i wasn't there so dont quote that..lol).

From about the mid 70's till now, the media has grew and grew, questioning every aspect of life, and exposing some real truths, some of which are undescribable here. It's onlt recently, since the invention of the computer, that we are all able to get information...instantly, on demand. Now, ytou dont even have to leave your house, and can be in touch with the world.

That has inevitably led to a new way of thinking, that work is the only solution to all your problems, you must have a job...or else. The or else is..benefits, and if your on benefits, your a scrounger. That has been commonplace since the 70's, i know this because my parents were never on benefits, ever. That's probally why i got thrown out of the family home at 16, not sure, but that's not the point.

Ever since then, it's been a balance of...your either on benefits, or your not. that's also why over 30 million £ of benefits go unclaimed each year, not because they are entitled to it, because they are proud and dont want to be seen or known as a scrounger.

So when i say, we stick together, i'm not saying, we all have regular group hug sessions in the park, and sit round a fire singing kum-bay-ah all day. I mean it in a figuritvly sense, that societies will always stick together, even though there is greater preasure to be alone in this world.

Most of this is nonsense.

You had to have lived in a time when you were expected to sell everything you possessed before you were even considered for National Assistance. When there was no child benefit for the first child, no help with housing costs, no sick pay from most employers, no maternity pay.

Todays so called poor have absolutely no idea how it was for us that struggled to survive in the '50s and '60's.

Basic benefits for most, especially those with children provide a standard of living that most of us would have considered luxury. Even the family that this was all started about have, to me, a very decent standard of living with almost £1000 a month to spend. Surely if you can afford a luxury like running a car on benefits then you're not doing too badly.

It's no good complaining that you can't afford a Christmas dinner if you are spending your available cash on luxuries like mobile phones and cars. Need to get the priorities sorted.

As for people on benefits all being thought of as scroungers what a load of tosh. If that is how you like to describe yourselves, if you want to see yourselves as misunderstood martyrs then so be it. But you are the ones saying it.....no one else. However if it makes you feel better to see yourselves as a persecuted group then get on with it. No one can know you claim benefits unless you tell them.

cosmic-dust

Wingus wrote: »

Ever since then, it's been a balance of...your either on benefits, or your not. that's also why over 30 million £ of benefits go unclaimed each year, not because they are entitled to it, because they are proud and dont want to be seen or known as a scrounger.

So how does the above work then, if you work and receive working tax credits? Tax credits at the end of the day is still a benefit.

This "be seen as or known as a scrounger", still flies right over my head. Do people go around telling all of the people they met daily that they are on benefits?

Do people walk around Tesco/Asda playing spot the benefit claimant? Because I know I certainly don't, I have far too much other things in life to worry about. The same can be said walking down any high street, do people automatically assume anyone walking about after 9am is a benefit claimant, or do people think he/she might be a stay at home parent or a shift worker or it might even be their day off.

JimmyTheWig

john539 wrote: »

But it gives a basic context on amount they live on.

It does no such thing, without saying what isn't included in that.
£11k from which everything has to be paid is significantly different to £11k from which rent/mortgage has already been covered which is again significantly different to £11k to cover all costs after rent, council tax, water rates, utilities, transport, insurance, etc.
Without saying which it is gives no sort of basic context.

Editing out the £11k would not stop the hyenas asking how much they get, looking for weaknesses to target the OP in their article.

Yes, I'm sure there would be some. But then I think it would be fair to say "this article isn't about how much we get and we're not going to discuss this". Posts that repeatedly enquired after this information could be legitimately removed as being off topic.

Flyboy152

krisskross wrote: »

Do you know anyone who has tried and succeeded in obtaining out of work benefits in a foreign country with no contributions in that country where they probably don't even speak the language?

No thought not.

The point of this conversation was your objection to UK citizens receiving UK based benefits, when seeking work within the EEA.

krisskross wrote: »

Flyboy152 wrote: »

Wingus wrote: »

You also might want to consider the following:

Claiming when abroad

You must let your social security office (or Jobcentre or Jobcentre Plus office) know that you are going abroad. If it is only a temporary move, then give the date you are planning to come back.
Your entitlement to benefits abroad also depends on which country you are going to. If you are going to a European Economic Area (EEA) country or one with a social security agreement with the UK, you might get extra UK-based benefits. Or you might be able to get a benefit which that country provides.
For most benefits provided by other countries under these arrangements, you will have to have paid National Insurance (NI) contributions in the UK. Form E301 is a record of UK National Insurance contributions which may help a claim for unemployment benefit in another EU country. You can download an application form for this and other related forms using the link below.

Personally, i think all benefit, should only be paid to those in the UK, but that's a whole different subject altogether.

Then you are restricting that person's ability to seek work. There are nearly three million people unemployed in this country and fewer than a half a million jobs available. If someone wants to try their luck at getting a job in France, Germany, Estonia or Poland, why should they be prevented from doing so?

I can't imagine anyone getting JSA, housing benefit etc in any European country while they look for work. They would need a pre-arranged job and sufficient funds to live on.

We lived in Spain for a few years and very few English people had legal jobs. Most were trying to scrape a living ripping off other ex-pats in the black economy.